AAG to Transfer Envoy CRJ-700s to PSA

Cherokee_Cruiser said:
But if ALPA had balls they would prohibit ANY regional airline pilot group from voting yes to concessions-for-planes. Call it the greater good for the profession.
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Firstly this doesn't stop mainline from swapping planes, stop being obtuse. You may be trying to argue that airplanes wouldn't get swapping if ALPA didn't let airlines undercut each other. That's ALPA, don't like it? Tough toenails, that was decided long before you and I got in this. Furthermore, the industry would be better off with your pay for RJ job program. We can go in circles all day Manny but no one here cares.

Well ALPA can go cowboy I suppose, but that sounds like a violation of their own rules. I doubt national could enforce it if the local mec told moak to screw off.

"Professional" aviation isn't going to pot because the regionals are still undercutting each other after 20 years. Just be happy the flipping airlines are union places in case the regionals do ever grow again, maybe there can be some sort of bar raising later on.
Cherokee_Cruiser said:
Sure they do. So what stops Delta from sending their entire Boeing 737NG fleet from Delta Air Lines to a new Co. that can do it cheaper?
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What happened, you rethought this?
Scope silly. That's that CBA crap ALPA is good at.
 
roundout said:
It doesn't. But it doesn't help anybody when National's policy seems to be championing any contract that will ensure growth (even at crap payrates, work rules, and benefits), even at the expense of another company which they represent. There's no action without an equal and opposite reaction. In this scenario, if National encourages PDT or PSA to vote yes, there, naturally, will be a consequence at another airline.
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Eh, regionals are gone, get a flow if you can and pray. ALPA can't arm wrestle the market for you, the best they can do is slow the erosion and I think they've done as well as they could. You should have seen what Delta was doing to us during bk. Alpa was the only thing that kept us above gojets pay for a shrinking airline. That soft pay gave me tons before I left.
 
Seggy said:
I just want to clarify something with this statement. It is not your fault or pilots at regional airlines (more on that below) but what ALPA is doing in terms of 'scope choke' is working VERY well. The scope portions at Delta and United (and American) are working and that correlates to the turmoil we are seeing at the regional airlines.



This relates to the post above, but ALPA National has done a deplorable job of actually explaining to regional airline pilots and their elected leadership what the scope clauses of the actual mainline parters are. That would not have changed the situation individual regionals are in, but it would have added another element for the pilots to make their decisions based on the information provided. Furthermore, ALPA National hasn't done anything outside of the box or tangible to really help folks leave their respective Regionals even though the polling data shows that over 70% of Regional Pilots at ALPA Carriers want to leave.

Thankfully, the UALMEC is thinking outside of the box to help their ALPA Brothers and Sisters and came up with a tangible answer with the Fee For Departure Open Houses. More airlines in ALPA should be doing the same thing to really help the 70%+ of ALPA Fee For Departure Pilots that want to leave.
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I agree. I'm happy that scope is working. I honestly don't want more airplanes to be handed from any mainline carrier to my company. It would help me personally in the short term, but I know that the growth of regionals is a bad thing for my career.

My frustration with the situation comes down to how this is going down. The people that are willing to lay down and take it from management are the ones that are going to be rewarded, despite the fact that really if mainline carriers parked planes in sync with attrition, the same effect would be had without really screwing pilots over.

In the long term this is all great for our careers, I get that. But it could be done so much better. I know it's management driving this ship, but IMO it's ludicrous that a union is willing to stand by and watch a quality group of pilots get roughed up for a couple of dollars, then champion an unproven path up to American in return for rolling over.

I am thankful for the United FFD open house. I'm really looking forward to going to DEN later this month. At the very least it is a light at the end of the tunnel. The regionals have been an extraordinarily crappy place to be lately. It's nice to have something to look forward to. It absolutely makes my day whenever anybody at a mainline carrier looks out for us little guys.
 
jynxyjoe said:
Or get out of regionals if you have some tpic.
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Right. Nearly 7 year FO...

Granted, I've been busy elsewhere in life and haven't served myself up to the slave masters as some have, but man oh man - the lot of you here may just have one less pilot competing for the coveted "mainline" meal ticket here soon.
 
surreal1221 said:
Right. Nearly 7 year FO...

Granted, I've been busy elsewhere in life and haven't served myself up to the slave masters as some have, but man oh man - the lot of you here may just have one less pilot competing for the coveted "mainline" meal ticket here soon.
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I understand man but I'm rooting for you regardless.
 
jynxyjoe said:
Firstly this doesn't stop mainline from swapping planes, stop being obtuse. You may be trying to argue that airplanes wouldn't get swapping if ALPA didn't let airlines undercut each other. That's ALPA, don't like it? Tough toenails, that was decided long before you and I got in this.
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Some excuse. Typical mentality. "Don't like it, tough toenails." Decided before we got into this, true, but it needs to be UNdone.

Furthermore, the industry would be better off with your pay for RJ job program. Well ALPA can go cowboy I suppose, but that sounds like a violation of their own rules. I doubt national could enforce it if the local mec told moak to screw off.
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Better off with the program? Yes, I agree. The ATP/1500 hr is really going to be hurting the regional industry and it would survive a lot better if RJ programs were still around. And this has been spilled milk cried over, but my course was just training, not a PFT thing like Gulfstream.

"Professional" aviation isn't going to pot because the regionals are still undercutting each other after 20 years. Just be happy the flipping airlines are union places in case the regionals do ever grow again, maybe there can be some sort of bar raising later on.
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There is no such thing as "bar raising." It's who ever can do it cheaper. Comair was the first and only example of trying to raise the bar in the Summer of 2001. 9/11 ensued, and they were then promptly stabbed in the back by every regional airline. About your 'happy flipping airlines are union places' it is worth mentioning Skywest is non-union and since I've been in this industry, have been the highest paying regional with the happiest pilot group. I don't know what is up with them these days with a ASA/XJT merger but the point stands.

What happened, you rethought this?
Scope silly. That's that CBA crap ALPA is good at.
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And you accuse me of having ADD? Did you read what you wrote?

You:

"ALPA has nothing to do with where the planes get sent right? Just want to make sure."

That was my point about planes being outsourced elsewhere: scope clause, a part of an ALPA contract. So YES, ALPA has everything to do with where planes get sent. An iron-clad scope agreement is essential.


jynxyjoe said:
And that wasn't the flipping question. Pay attention, you've got ADD or something.
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What question? I answered there is no union CBA here.
 
wheelsup said:
Always someone out there that will do it for less.

IMO scope is the single most important part of the contract. Without scope, your pay and work rules are meaningless.
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That's true. Though save Skybus there hasn't been a real precedent of Airbus operators popping up. Nor has there been a precedent of sending a mainline A320 to a regional partner for outsourcing. Regardless, I agree with you and am a yes vote.
 
Cherokee_Cruiser said:
There is no such thing as "bar raising." It's who ever can do it cheaper. Comair was the first and only example of trying to raise the bar in the Summer of 2001. 9/11 ensued, and they were then promptly stabbed in the back by every regional airline. About your 'happy flipping airlines are union places' it is worth mentioning Skywest is non-union and since I've been in this industry, have been the highest paying regional with the happiest pilot group.
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Firstly , Mesaba, Eagle, Asa, got paid more than skywest.

As for the rest, I don't think your able to keep up, chug some water and watch some football then try again.
 
Cherokee_Cruiser said:
That's true. Though save Skybus there hasn't been a real precedent of Airbus operators popping up. Nor has there been a precedent of sending a mainline A320 to a regional partner for outsourcing. Regardless, I agree with you and am a yes vote.
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Also it can be used as a pawn to get you to agree to lower wages. A la what AAG is doing to Envoy. "Voted no? Well F you then. We'll take "your" planes and give them to XYZ".
 
I gotta say. These legacy airline management groups have some of the biggest egos. Bigger than pilot egos (who would have thunk). Delta somehow thinks people will go to Endeavor because, well, Delta. Do the AAG people think the exact same thing will work with PSA in the long run? I have yet to hear of anyone from XJT going to PSA and I highly doubt people from Envoy will want to stay with an AAG carrier after getting their ass handed to them several times.

According to the staffing spreadsheet someone set up at the "other" site PSA staffs about 14.5 pilots per plane. That requires 1030 pilots over the next 2 years. 24 CRJ900s still need delivered + 47 CRJ700s coming from Envoy. If they use the industry average of 10.7 pilots per plane they would still need 760 pilots. Of course these numbers do not include any additional hiring due to attrition. I don't know if they will be able to get 380-515 pilots per year. This is especially true with the legacies increasing their hiring rates every year.
 
From our MEC today....discuss!





September 4, 2014


Dear PSA Pilots:

Today American Airlines Group announced that 47 CRJ-701 aircraft will be transferred from Envoy to PSA beginning in mid-2015. This decision was made by Group management to rationally align fleet types and reduce costs. The tough choices that we made last year to trade certain high longevity and benefit provisions for things we valued more—career progression and job security—have again borne fruit for this pilot group.

While growth is good for our airline, my heart goes out to our ALPA colleagues at Envoy who will be affected by this move. I pledge to work with our management and Envoy’s ALPA leadership to find jobs for any Envoy pilot who wants to work at PSA. We have a duty to take care of our fellow pilots in their time of need.

As we continue to place 30 CRJ-900s into service and follow with these 47 CRJ-701s, we will undoubtedly find it more difficult to attract qualified pilots to the airline. We must improve key contractual provisions to complete that task. A full-fledged flow-through without an interview and starting pay that more adequately reflects our level of training and qualifications are the first items on that list.

Finally, please handle this announcement with the aplomb and grace of a professional PSA pilot. We may deal with pilots who have varied views on our growth and I encourage you to help educate them on the best terms of our contract. It’s a good day for PSA and our collective future.


In unity,

Jesse A. Coeling
MEC Chairman








Air Line Pilots Association, International
 
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