PropDriver
Well-Known Member
It's not as fun as you think
AA/USair
- Thread starter turbomax97
- Start date
ZapBrannigan
If it ain’t a Boeing, I’m not going. No choice.
If it comes true they'll be too big to fail... And a travel experience that rivals Greyhound's finest...
SlumTodd_Millionaire
Most Hated Member
This is getting interesting. The latest update from the APA President:
Fellow pilots,
It was announced this morning that the three unions at American Airlines—Allied Pilots Association, Transport Workers Union and Association of Professional Flight Attendants, representing a total of 55,000 front-line employees—have agreed to support US Airways’ bid for a merger between American Airlines and US Airways. This endeavor has been underway for many months and your APA leadership has been in direct discussions with the senior leadership at US Airways since early March. In this letter, I want to explain why APA decided to support a merger, how the process came about, what the new American Airlines would look like, and provide a brief overview of what APA has already negotiated as the framework of a new collective bargaining agreement.
AMR’s Business Plan
The APA leadership does not believe that AMR’s business plan will produce an airline that is viable long term. I’ll just summarize with this: while AMR’s network and route structure have withered during the past decade, those at United and Delta have grown larger and stronger, resulting in the steady defection of American Airlines’ corporate accounts and vital high-value customers. A big component of AMR’s plan for restructuring is to force massive concessions on unionized employees to reduce them to below-market compensation. Another primary element is to rework the “Cornerstone” plan to try to bring in additional revenue by down-gauging AMR’s fleet and through dramatically expanded domestic code sharing. Combined with the substantially increased productivity management seeks and the large-scale outsourcing of pilot jobs that management envisions, the result would be a major loss of pilot jobs at American Airlines. The effects would be catastrophic, including further stagnation for a pilot group that has already suffered from the industry’s longest time to upgrade to captain.
Our Futures
Management has told us that we should be excited because AMR has ordered new aircraft and has options to purchase more. New aircraft orders — which primarily will go toward replacing our fuel-guzzling S80 fleet — do not constitute job security for our pilots. Most of the Wall Street analysts view American Airlines management’s efforts to achieve network parity with Delta and United as “too little, too late.” The same analysts also believe any such effort would probably destabilize an industry that has finally gained some meaningful degree of pricing power. We also need to be mindful of the fact that management intends to impose regional airline pay rates on large numbers of new Airbus aircraft—not an especially appealing prospect. So exactly how do pilots benefit from being displaced into much lower-paying equipment?
Management’s Vision for a New Pilot Contract
Based on management’s actions to date, their vision—quite simply—consists of rejecting our contract entirely. They are on the Harvey Miller high-speed train to terminate our contract in bankruptcy court (Miller was Frank Lorenzo’s lawyer at Continental and Eastern. He is now AMR’s lead restructuring attorney). Management has made no moves at the table that suggest any interest in trying to arrive at a consensual agreement. While APA has taken the high road and made every effort to negotiate in good faith, management has shown beyond a shadow of a doubt they’re not interested in reciprocating.
The New American Airlines
First and foremost, the combined carrier will be branded American Airlines, based in Fort Worth Texas and headquartered at CentrePort. It will be comparable in size and scope to Delta and United, with a robust domestic network capable of supporting significant international expansion. American Airlines’ relationship with oneworld will be maintained and strengthened. All of American Airlines’ aircraft orders with Boeing and Airbus will proceed. The former US Airways route system will be realigned with the American Airlines system to add more cities, more markets and better frequencies. The new American Airlines, under a lean, energetic and highly capable management team, will be able to compete on an equal footing to win back high-value customers. On the East Coast, which is the largest and most lucrative airline market in the world, American Airlines will go from No. 5 to a strong No. 1. In the Midwest, we will go from No. 4 to No. 1. In Miami, our dominance to South America will be enhanced by stronger East Coast traffic flows. For the first time in years, American Airlines will be in a position of strength in Chicago.
How Did We Get Here?
As your APA leadership has been emphasizing for some time, we are committed to evaluating all available alternatives to AMR management’s restructuring plan in an effort to provide a better outcome for our pilots. US Airways’ senior management has made no secret of their desire to further the process of industry consolidation by joining with American Airlines. For many months, a team from US Airways has been making presentations to various Wall Street analysts and investors, including one of APA’s advisers. After being briefed on the substance of the US Airways presentation, I initiated a dialogue with that airline’s leadership, which resulted in a series of meetings beginning last month. Their vision was compelling. Shortly thereafter, the APA Board of Directors was briefed and they gave a “thumbs up” to continue exploring a potential merger.
The Negotiations
When it started becoming clear that a merger with US Airways was a superior alternative to AMR’s stand-alone plan—and with the support from the APA Board of Directors—we assembled a team to begin substantive discussions with the senior leadership at US Airways. Accompanying me to Phoenix for those discussions were members of the APA Negotiating, Scope, Industry Analysis, Technical Analysis and Contingency Committees, as well APA’s General Counsel, bankruptcy counsel and a delegation from investment adviser Lazard. At this point, US Airways began discussions with the leadership at APFA and TWU, which had begun to evaluate this alternative course of action.
Working with US Airways, APA was able to achieve in just over a week far more than we had been able to achieve in more than five years of trying to bargain with AMR management. Our interaction with US Airways was in stark contrast to what we have been experiencing with AMR. We dealt directly with the people whose jobs are to run an airline. Many of the talks consisted of president-to-president interaction. In accordance with the APA Constitution and Bylaws, there were always two members of the APA Negotiating Committee present during these negotiations. Completely absent from the discussion were the posturing and game-playing that characterizes the approach AMR management takes when dealing with us.
Returning from Phoenix, we had accomplished a great deal toward constructing a framework for an agreement, but we still had several important unresolved issues to address. We convened a special APA Board of Directors meeting and the Board remained in session as the unresolved issues were negotiated. The APA Board of Directors then spent several days carefully studying and evaluating the plan of reorganization agreement. Upon the closeout of the last remaining issues, the APA Board of Directors voted unanimously to support the framework for a new CBA.
A New Collective Bargaining Agreement for the Pilots of American Airlines
APA has agreed with US Airways on a framework for a new collective bargaining agreement. Our agreement will be distilled into final contract language during the next 60 days and will be sent out for a membership ratification vote as specified in APA’s Constitution and Bylaws. Details on the specifics of the new CBA will be provided in a separate, upcoming communication from the APA Negotiating Committee. Please click here to access our special AA-US Airways merger page on the members’ side of alliedpilots.org. This page will be updated regularly as additional information becomes available.
A Good Day for APA
I would like to extend my personal thanks to the many APA officials and committee members who worked tirelessly to conclude this agreement. This includes my fellow National Officers, the APA Negotiating Committee, Scope Committee, Industry Analysis Committee, Pension Committee, APA Contingency Committee, Technical Analysis Committee, and last but certainly not least, the entire APA Board of Directors. All of these individuals have put in countless hours on behalf of their fellow pilots.
Still a Long Road Ahead
This merger, along with a new CBA and a much brighter future for American Airlines, is still far from certain. Chapter 11 restructuring is a difficult, complex process for all concerned.
I urge all pilots to stay informed and involved. We will keep you updated as events warrant.
Fellow pilots,
It was announced this morning that the three unions at American Airlines—Allied Pilots Association, Transport Workers Union and Association of Professional Flight Attendants, representing a total of 55,000 front-line employees—have agreed to support US Airways’ bid for a merger between American Airlines and US Airways. This endeavor has been underway for many months and your APA leadership has been in direct discussions with the senior leadership at US Airways since early March. In this letter, I want to explain why APA decided to support a merger, how the process came about, what the new American Airlines would look like, and provide a brief overview of what APA has already negotiated as the framework of a new collective bargaining agreement.
AMR’s Business Plan
The APA leadership does not believe that AMR’s business plan will produce an airline that is viable long term. I’ll just summarize with this: while AMR’s network and route structure have withered during the past decade, those at United and Delta have grown larger and stronger, resulting in the steady defection of American Airlines’ corporate accounts and vital high-value customers. A big component of AMR’s plan for restructuring is to force massive concessions on unionized employees to reduce them to below-market compensation. Another primary element is to rework the “Cornerstone” plan to try to bring in additional revenue by down-gauging AMR’s fleet and through dramatically expanded domestic code sharing. Combined with the substantially increased productivity management seeks and the large-scale outsourcing of pilot jobs that management envisions, the result would be a major loss of pilot jobs at American Airlines. The effects would be catastrophic, including further stagnation for a pilot group that has already suffered from the industry’s longest time to upgrade to captain.
Our Futures
Management has told us that we should be excited because AMR has ordered new aircraft and has options to purchase more. New aircraft orders — which primarily will go toward replacing our fuel-guzzling S80 fleet — do not constitute job security for our pilots. Most of the Wall Street analysts view American Airlines management’s efforts to achieve network parity with Delta and United as “too little, too late.” The same analysts also believe any such effort would probably destabilize an industry that has finally gained some meaningful degree of pricing power. We also need to be mindful of the fact that management intends to impose regional airline pay rates on large numbers of new Airbus aircraft—not an especially appealing prospect. So exactly how do pilots benefit from being displaced into much lower-paying equipment?
Management’s Vision for a New Pilot Contract
Based on management’s actions to date, their vision—quite simply—consists of rejecting our contract entirely. They are on the Harvey Miller high-speed train to terminate our contract in bankruptcy court (Miller was Frank Lorenzo’s lawyer at Continental and Eastern. He is now AMR’s lead restructuring attorney). Management has made no moves at the table that suggest any interest in trying to arrive at a consensual agreement. While APA has taken the high road and made every effort to negotiate in good faith, management has shown beyond a shadow of a doubt they’re not interested in reciprocating.
The New American Airlines
First and foremost, the combined carrier will be branded American Airlines, based in Fort Worth Texas and headquartered at CentrePort. It will be comparable in size and scope to Delta and United, with a robust domestic network capable of supporting significant international expansion. American Airlines’ relationship with oneworld will be maintained and strengthened. All of American Airlines’ aircraft orders with Boeing and Airbus will proceed. The former US Airways route system will be realigned with the American Airlines system to add more cities, more markets and better frequencies. The new American Airlines, under a lean, energetic and highly capable management team, will be able to compete on an equal footing to win back high-value customers. On the East Coast, which is the largest and most lucrative airline market in the world, American Airlines will go from No. 5 to a strong No. 1. In the Midwest, we will go from No. 4 to No. 1. In Miami, our dominance to South America will be enhanced by stronger East Coast traffic flows. For the first time in years, American Airlines will be in a position of strength in Chicago.
How Did We Get Here?
As your APA leadership has been emphasizing for some time, we are committed to evaluating all available alternatives to AMR management’s restructuring plan in an effort to provide a better outcome for our pilots. US Airways’ senior management has made no secret of their desire to further the process of industry consolidation by joining with American Airlines. For many months, a team from US Airways has been making presentations to various Wall Street analysts and investors, including one of APA’s advisers. After being briefed on the substance of the US Airways presentation, I initiated a dialogue with that airline’s leadership, which resulted in a series of meetings beginning last month. Their vision was compelling. Shortly thereafter, the APA Board of Directors was briefed and they gave a “thumbs up” to continue exploring a potential merger.
The Negotiations
When it started becoming clear that a merger with US Airways was a superior alternative to AMR’s stand-alone plan—and with the support from the APA Board of Directors—we assembled a team to begin substantive discussions with the senior leadership at US Airways. Accompanying me to Phoenix for those discussions were members of the APA Negotiating, Scope, Industry Analysis, Technical Analysis and Contingency Committees, as well APA’s General Counsel, bankruptcy counsel and a delegation from investment adviser Lazard. At this point, US Airways began discussions with the leadership at APFA and TWU, which had begun to evaluate this alternative course of action.
Working with US Airways, APA was able to achieve in just over a week far more than we had been able to achieve in more than five years of trying to bargain with AMR management. Our interaction with US Airways was in stark contrast to what we have been experiencing with AMR. We dealt directly with the people whose jobs are to run an airline. Many of the talks consisted of president-to-president interaction. In accordance with the APA Constitution and Bylaws, there were always two members of the APA Negotiating Committee present during these negotiations. Completely absent from the discussion were the posturing and game-playing that characterizes the approach AMR management takes when dealing with us.
Returning from Phoenix, we had accomplished a great deal toward constructing a framework for an agreement, but we still had several important unresolved issues to address. We convened a special APA Board of Directors meeting and the Board remained in session as the unresolved issues were negotiated. The APA Board of Directors then spent several days carefully studying and evaluating the plan of reorganization agreement. Upon the closeout of the last remaining issues, the APA Board of Directors voted unanimously to support the framework for a new CBA.
A New Collective Bargaining Agreement for the Pilots of American Airlines
APA has agreed with US Airways on a framework for a new collective bargaining agreement. Our agreement will be distilled into final contract language during the next 60 days and will be sent out for a membership ratification vote as specified in APA’s Constitution and Bylaws. Details on the specifics of the new CBA will be provided in a separate, upcoming communication from the APA Negotiating Committee. Please click here to access our special AA-US Airways merger page on the members’ side of alliedpilots.org. This page will be updated regularly as additional information becomes available.
A Good Day for APA
I would like to extend my personal thanks to the many APA officials and committee members who worked tirelessly to conclude this agreement. This includes my fellow National Officers, the APA Negotiating Committee, Scope Committee, Industry Analysis Committee, Pension Committee, APA Contingency Committee, Technical Analysis Committee, and last but certainly not least, the entire APA Board of Directors. All of these individuals have put in countless hours on behalf of their fellow pilots.
Still a Long Road Ahead
This merger, along with a new CBA and a much brighter future for American Airlines, is still far from certain. Chapter 11 restructuring is a difficult, complex process for all concerned.
I urge all pilots to stay informed and involved. We will keep you updated as events warrant.
RightSeatGirl
KA'PLAH BITCHES!
Where this really get interesting is at the regional wholly owned level...PDT, PSA and Eagle I think would likely all be lumped into one super-regional.
That would be a fun seniority list to combine.....
Autothrust Blue
“If you jump on my shift, that’s just rude, man.”
SureJet Airlines, Inc.
Wait, that one has been done before.
None of those combinations make any sense at all. Too many different equipment types, and on and on. I'd just sell 'em all.
FlySooner9
Well-Known Member
Pretty sure it would only be 3ish? CRJ'S ERJ's and Dash 8's which are probably toast.
Autothrust Blue
“If you jump on my shift, that’s just rude, man.”
To me, that is about one too many airframe types.
However, I can see the EMBs going away. They're pretty tired and "inefficient" and "unprofitable".
FlySooner9
Well-Known Member
yeah if there was any type of regional merger involved with this i see the Dash 8's going away and probably EMJ's being swapped out for more CRJ700/900's
Rage Against The Machine
Well-Known Member
Subject: Notes from APA Meeting
Name stays AA
HQ in DFW
US comes to Oneworld (hurts UAL)
Pay banding
Starting point is current green book.
5.5% raise on date of signing
3% / yrs 2-6, then avg of UAL/DAL
A319 no longer a sep payband
Vac goes to 3+40/day. Better accrual
Hard freeze & 14% DC Plan
PBS. US West pilots love it. Well managed. Lines 83. P/u to 90. Keep current rigs.
Scope committee is "giddy" with what is offered. Parker doesn't understand code share. He wants the revenue. Max Dom code share = 4% of total asm's.
Keeping AA's Boeing/Bus order. Very excited to get 787.
Unsure about AE. Parker wants to see books then decide. Hates 50 seaters. Prob convert most 319 orders to 320/321's.
Med costs will go from 14% to 17% (I think 1113 had it going to 26%.
Not a sure thing, but APA seems quite confident. No timeline given, more than 2 mos, possibly by end of summer. Horton is said to be steaming mad.
Seniority may go to expedited arbitration. Expect percentile in type over any DOH (aka DAL/NWA)
US East guys will get about 25-30% raise out of this.
Name stays AA
HQ in DFW
US comes to Oneworld (hurts UAL)
Pay banding
Starting point is current green book.
5.5% raise on date of signing
3% / yrs 2-6, then avg of UAL/DAL
A319 no longer a sep payband
Vac goes to 3+40/day. Better accrual
Hard freeze & 14% DC Plan
PBS. US West pilots love it. Well managed. Lines 83. P/u to 90. Keep current rigs.
Scope committee is "giddy" with what is offered. Parker doesn't understand code share. He wants the revenue. Max Dom code share = 4% of total asm's.
Keeping AA's Boeing/Bus order. Very excited to get 787.
Unsure about AE. Parker wants to see books then decide. Hates 50 seaters. Prob convert most 319 orders to 320/321's.
Med costs will go from 14% to 17% (I think 1113 had it going to 26%.
Not a sure thing, but APA seems quite confident. No timeline given, more than 2 mos, possibly by end of summer. Horton is said to be steaming mad.
Seniority may go to expedited arbitration. Expect percentile in type over any DOH (aka DAL/NWA)
US East guys will get about 25-30% raise out of this.
mooneyguy
been around forever
"Fellow American Eagle pilots:
This morning, US Airways announced that it had reached tentative contract agreements with all of American Airlines’ unions. The unions have indicated to their membership that the tentative agreements, while concessionary, are significantly better than what American Airlines is demanding that they concede in bankruptcy.
The MEC has been briefed on today’s events and we will be working with our bankruptcy counsel to determine the best way forward for Eagle pilots.
There is limited information currently available concerning any proposed transaction between US Airways and AMR. We have no idea at this point whether US Airways has any intention of acquiring American Eagle as part of this offer, and will continue our planning for various contingencies.
As details become available, we will convey them to you."
So, It seems alpa was asleep at the wheel on this one, again. A quote from a friend and fellow eagle pilot I got today. "the more we learn from them (alpa) the less we know"
This morning, US Airways announced that it had reached tentative contract agreements with all of American Airlines’ unions. The unions have indicated to their membership that the tentative agreements, while concessionary, are significantly better than what American Airlines is demanding that they concede in bankruptcy.
The MEC has been briefed on today’s events and we will be working with our bankruptcy counsel to determine the best way forward for Eagle pilots.
There is limited information currently available concerning any proposed transaction between US Airways and AMR. We have no idea at this point whether US Airways has any intention of acquiring American Eagle as part of this offer, and will continue our planning for various contingencies.
As details become available, we will convey them to you."
So, It seems alpa was asleep at the wheel on this one, again. A quote from a friend and fellow eagle pilot I got today. "the more we learn from them (alpa) the less we know"
SlumTodd_Millionaire
Most Hated Member
Not sure what you think ALPA should have known here. Parker doesn't have any dealings with ALPA, so they weren't included on the meetings. The AMR pilots are represented by the APA, and the USAirways pilots are represented by USAPA.
Some of you people really go to a whole lot of effort trying to blame ALPA for everything.
Some of you people really go to a whole lot of effort trying to blame ALPA for everything.
SlumTodd_Millionaire
Most Hated Member
For those interested, these are the combined retirement numbers if USAirways and AMR were to merge (copied from another web site):
2012 306
2013 501
2014 531
2015 581
2016 671
2017 787
2018 856
2019 921
2020 924
2021 1013
2022 965
2023 1028
2024 956
2025 925
That would be one incredible career for some of the young guys here if hired at the front end of the hiring boom.
2012 306
2013 501
2014 531
2015 581
2016 671
2017 787
2018 856
2019 921
2020 924
2021 1013
2022 965
2023 1028
2024 956
2025 925
That would be one incredible career for some of the young guys here if hired at the front end of the hiring boom.
Rage Against The Machine
Well-Known Member
ATN front end or back end, either or would be good with those type of ret. numbers.
BrewMaster
Well-Known Member
I meant I was going to get a job at Burger King....
mooneyguy
been around forever
Not sure what you think ALPA should have known here. Parker doesn't have any dealings with ALPA, so they weren't included on the meetings. The AMR pilots are represented by the APA, and the USAirways pilots are represented by USAPA.
Some of you people really go to a whole lot of effort trying to blame ALPA for everything.
At least APA, APFA and TWU were PROactive and worked, or are working on securing their members futures. Rather then sitting around hoping AMR throws them a bone.
SlumTodd_Millionaire
Most Hated Member
Rage, yep, that's true. From those numbers, it looks like initial upgrade to narrowbody captain for a newhire would happen in just 8 years. Upgrade to large narrowbody captain in less than two more years, and upgrade to widebody captain very shortly thereafter, since the retirement numbers skyrocket right about there. In short, you would be a widebody captain in less than 15 years. That's before I'm due to upgrade on a 737, based on current projections. Pretty impressive.
SlumTodd_Millionaire
Most Hated Member
Fantasy. APA, APFA, and TWU were approached by Parker, because he needed their support. Those three unions make up a third of the entire creditor's committee, and he needs the committee's support before going to the bankruptcy judge with his offer. They weren't being proactive, they were just listening to his proposal, which happened to be a good one.
FlySooner9
Well-Known Member
question is do they keep eagle around in some shape or form for the primary reason of being a guaranteed pilot pool.
Gonzo
Well-Known Member
ALPA has been trying to get a meeting set up with any one from Airways. Hard to work with somebody who doesn't even want to meet with you. Now if you know some way to make a meeting happen I would call your rep now.