AA bequeathed an 8% parity raise.

learhawkerbe400 said:
Hmm I'm confused. I've never heard a rig described like that before. Our trip rig pays 3.75:1 from trip start to trip completion. Doesn't matter about overnights or duty periods.

The only time it doesn't help is when the trip starts late day 1, ends early on the last day, and has less duty periods than calendar days. That's how we get 12 hour 3 days and 18 hr 4 days.

A minimum calendar day, average calendar day, or improved trip rig would solve the problem.
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You're talking about a TAFB rig, which is another way to setup a rig.

Where were you before American?
 
jtrain609 said:
You're talking about a TAFB rig, which is another way to setup a rig.

Where were you before American?
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Unknown-1.jpeg
 
jtrain609 said:
Air Wisconsin too, if I remember correctly.

But believe me, the thought did not escape me. Sometimes I wonder if American has terrible work rules because it's trAAdition and it was good enough on the Connie, so it's good enough today.
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FO's will promptly put their hand behind the throttle quadrant after the captain removed his hand at V1 as the DC-3 had throttle creep and by god that's how you fly a brand new 737 too!

On another note I have one more trip of doing my own briefings until I transfer to DFW next month and suddenly won't be capable of doing my own :)
 
learhawkerbe400 said:
Yea TAFB/ trip rig are the same thing.

I was at air wisconsin.
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They're not, though.

A rig just means some way to rig your pay credit to the amount of time you are at work. The most common rig you see is a TAFB rig that makes sure you'll be paid X amount of hours per every day/hour/whatever away from base.

An ADTG, which is Average Daily Trip Guarantee, is another kind of rig, which provides an average of X hours of pay per day over the entirety of the trip. Instead of being based on the time that you start, it's based on the number of calendar days your trip has. So if you have an ADTG and have a three day that shows at 2359 on day one, and releases at 0001 on day three, it'd pay X times 3 days, where a TAFB rig wouldn't really help you in this situation. A min day provision would ALSO provide X times 3 days in THIS situation.

But an ADTG has a hole in it, because if you don't work on a calendar day on a trip (I.E. a 30 hour overnight), you won't be paid for that day specifically, only for the totality of the trip.

That's what a min day protects against.

You can have all three working at the same time, if you'd like, and you take the greater of any of them based on the day, or trip, or month, or however you want to set it up.
 
jtrain609 said:
You have both by having both, and they each kick in at different times.

An average min day over the course of the trip is a rig. If you have a 5 hour average you'll never be paid less than 20 hours for a 4 day.

Which is fine, right? But what happens when you get that 21 hour 4 day, that has a 30 hour overnight on day two? In that case, if you also have a min day provision, you'd get paid your min day for that day; if it's a 5 hour min day, then the trip suddenly becomes worth 26 hours.
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Thanks for explaining that.
 
jtrain609 said:
They're not, though.

A rig just means some way to rig your pay credit to the amount of time you are at work. The most common rig you see is a TAFB rig that makes sure you'll be paid X amount of hours per every day/hour/whatever away from base.

An ADTG, which is Average Daily Trip Guarantee, is another kind of rig, which provides an average of X hours of pay per day over the entirety of the trip. Instead of being based on the time that you start, it's based on the number of calendar days your trip has. So if you have an ADTG and have a three day that shows at 2359 on day one, and releases at 0001 on day three, it'd pay X times 3 days, where a TAFB rig wouldn't really help you in this situation. A min day provision would ALSO provide X times 3 days in THIS situation.

But an ADTG has a hole in it, because if you don't work on a calendar day on a trip (I.E. a 30 hour overnight), you won't be paid for that day specifically, only for the totality of the trip.

That's what a min day protects against.

You can have all three working at the same time, if you'd like, and you take the greater of any of them based on the day, or trip, or month, or however you want to set it up.
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Isn't that what I was saying, just in a few more words?
 
learhawkerbe400 said:
Isn't that what I was saying, just in a few more words?
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I thought you were saying ditch a daily average rig in favor of min day, which at my shop we've found is a mistake. Whatever type of protections you put in, the company will optimize away from the soft time protections you have. Get an ADTG? 30 hour overnights show up. Get a min day? They'll find a way to make you fly the min day provision plus one minute for every calendar day.

The only real protection that exists against terrible schedules is a rig that's completely out of control (like 6-6.5 per day) or layers of soft time credit boosters.
 
jtrain609 said:
That's also terrible.

I'm constantly amazed at how bad the soft time rules are at American.
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Agree they're terrible. However they're only one contract removed from bankruptcy and the whole JCBA process wasn't a true section 6.

VP of Flight said in his letter announcing pay rates that the talks on fixing the min day issue are progressing. He also said a completely new contract is months, not years, away.

If we had some work rules AA would be very attractive for new hires with the massive retirements forthcoming.
 
learhawkerbe400 said:
Agree they're terrible. However they're only one contract removed from bankruptcy and the whole JCBA process wasn't a true section 6.

VP of Flight said in his letter announcing pay rates that the talks on fixing the min day issue are progressing. He also said a completely new contract is months, not years, away.

If we had some work rules AA would be very attractive for new hires with the massive retirements forthcoming.
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I haven't been paying attention. Serious Q, have you guys gotten the whole SLI straightened out?
 
A lot of semantics on the rigs here.

We have trip rig for TAFB.
We have min day pertaining to duty day.

We need avg daily (calendar not duty) guarantee.

Question for DL guys:
Your ADTG:
Assuming it's 5:00/day
You fly:
6hr day 1
4hr day 2
Trip pays 10? (where the avg comes from)
Or 11 hours?
 
AAPalmTree said:
A lot of semantics on the rigs here.

We have trip rig for TAFB.
We have min day pertaining to duty day.

We need avg daily (calendar not duty) guarantee.

Question for DL guys:
Your ADTG:
Assuming it's 5:00/day
You fly:
6hr day 1
4hr day 2
Trip pays 10? (where the avg comes from)
Or 11 hours?
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Under your scenario, using those numbers, it would pay 11.

A good example is the trip I'm flying now is a five day 29 hour credit trip with about 15:45 of total block time because of soft time, contract and duty period minimum.
 
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