A380 wake turbulence sends business jet in uncontrolled descent

flybywp

flybywp

Well-Known Member
Emirates Airbus A380-800 at FL 350 passes overtop a Canadair Challenger 604 at FL 340 that moments later loses control and recovers after dropping 10,000 ft.

"After passing underneath the A380 at about 08:40Z the crew lost control of the aircraft as result of wake turbulence from the A380 and was able to regain control of the aircraft only after losing about 10,000 feet. The airframe experienced very high G-Loads during the upset, a number of occupants received injuries during the upset."

http://avherald.com/h?article=4a5e80f3

Also says the aircraft was "damaged beyond repair and was written off." Sounds pretty crazy if that's really how it went down. Is this specific to the A380 or do other heavies have similar wake issues with smaller aircraft in RVSM airspace?
 
Good job to the crew on recovering.

In terms of pants-crapping moments, they did good.


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I got hit by wake turbulence from a 380 in a 175 flying 2,000 ft below around FL290 somewhere between BTV and ALB. It was no where near that bad but definitely surprised us.
 
thevideographer said:
Suddenly remembering how my airline gave us a whole 3 minutes of unusual attitude recovery training...
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Well, considering the last time an airline tried to use an Advanced Airline Maneuvering Program to train pilots and its contributing factor in an A300 crash near JFK, don't count on too much extreme scenarios for unusual attitude recoveries. Basic stuff yes, but a Level D sim can only accurately model so much. Once you start going beyond 90 degree flips/upside down/extreme events, the sim and realism just isn't the same.

Don't know the details of this, but I wouldn't be surprised if the business jet flipped beyond 90 degrees.

Just know that if you are in a passenger jetliner, you are most likely too big to be flipped anything beyond 45-60 degrees from wake --- quick and immediate correction action with aileron-only should level you.

This business jet lost altitude, but I wonder just how exactly they tried to recover from it? In the 2008 Mexico City Learjet crash, the Lear 45 flipped from wake all the way on its back. The correct thing to do would have been just to continue the roll and go back to level normal position. Instead, once the plane was on its back, the pilots did what *most* pilots do in abnormal situations..... pull back on the stick/yoke. Now being upside down and pulling back, you are trying to recover the looooooong way around that is undoubtedly going to result in increased airspeed, high G loads, airframe stressing, and in the case of the Mexico City crash, not enough altitude before hitting the ground.
 
Of course, I make a full exception for the Delta DC10 and DC9 that were practicing touch and goes at a small airport when the DC9 hit the wake on short final and with correction from the pilots, the opposite wake hit and sent the aircraft in a 90 degree flip with the wing striking the runway and subsequently crashing. Touch and goes and training flights at a small airport doesn't happen for airlines today. Then again, this accident led to safe distances behind a heavy on approach/landing.
 
It's also easier to recover in the sim or when following a heavy and you are expecting the unusual attitude/wake turbulence to happen. Completely different scenario up at cruise altitude when you aren't expecting it.
 
Cherokee_Cruiser said:
Well, considering the last time an airline tried to use an Advanced Airline Maneuvering Program to train pilots and its contributing factor in an A300 crash near JFK, don't count on too much extreme scenarios for unusual attitude recoveries. Basic stuff yes, but a Level D sim can only accurately model so much. Once you start going beyond 90 degree flips/upside down/extreme events, the sim and realism just isn't the same.

Don't know the details of this, but I wouldn't be surprised if the business jet flipped beyond 90 degrees.

Just know that if you are in a passenger jetliner, you are most likely too big to be flipped anything beyond 45-60 degrees from wake --- quick and immediate correction action with aileron-only should level you.
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A different article indicated that the Challenger rolled 5 times while the crew tried to regain control.
 
Cherokee_Cruiser said:
Well, considering the last time an airline tried to use an Advanced Airline Maneuvering Program to train pilots and its contributing factor in an A300 crash near JFK, don't count on too much extreme scenarios for unusual attitude recoveries. Basic stuff yes, but a Level D sim can only accurately model so much. Once you start going beyond 90 degree flips/upside down/extreme events, the sim and realism just isn't the same.

Don't know the details of this, but I wouldn't be surprised if the business jet flipped beyond 90 degrees.

Just know that if you are in a passenger jetliner, you are most likely too big to be flipped anything beyond 45-60 degrees from wake --- quick and immediate correction action with aileron-only should level you.

This business jet lost altitude, but I wonder just how exactly they tried to recover from it? In the 2008 Mexico City Learjet crash, the Lear 45 flipped from wake all the way on its back. The correct thing to do would have been just to continue the roll and go back to level normal position. Instead, once the plane was on its back, the pilots did what *most* pilots do in abnormal situations..... pull back on the stick/yoke. Now being upside down and pulling back, you are trying to recover the looooooong way around that is undoubtedly going to result in increased airspeed, high G loads, airframe stressing, and in the case of the Mexico City crash, not enough altitude before hitting the ground.
Click to expand...

Be careful making statements like that. An XJT CRJ200 was rolled 110° on approach into ATL behind a 747 about a year or so ago. We got the wake of something in a 175 bringing a brand new one back from FLL to DFW. Clear, smooth, calm, then BLAAAM! We were crossing the wake though, not paralleling it, so it was over quick. But it got out attention.

Point is, wakes can "flip" or rather, roll an airplane quite quickly. And the Sim training, while not very realistic, is a million percent better than nothing at all.
 
I got rolled at FL280 in a CRJ-200 to more than 45 degrees by a 757-200 descending through our altitude 10 miles in front... that'll wake you up!

As @Cherokee_Cruiser said, current sims can't do full stall training yet. That is no longer to be the case in the coming years with Extended Envelope Training.

The thing we are teaching universally is to always push as a first reaction to an upset to unload the wing... pulling is almost always the wrong response. Then roll using the ailerons to right the airplane, adjust power as necessary, then complete the recovery. Push, Roll, Power, Stabilize. Works great, lasts long time.
 
PeanuckleCRJ said:
As @Cherokee_Cruiser said, current sims can't do full stall training yet. That is no longer to be the case in the coming years with Extended Envelope Training.

...Push, Roll, Power, Stabilize...
Click to expand...
We've got a couple that already have the expanded envelope installed and are winding up programs to take that into account (two OEMs have been extremely proactive). Unfortunately the FAA will surely not require 91 and 135 operators to participate in this training, and their smaller aircraft are probably more likely to be involved in a wake turbulence-induced upset.

The APS program is fantastic but until they make airliners respond like Extras, it really needs to be combined with sim training...you can't replace the 'feeling' of being in an actual airplane and having your world turned upside down, but the delayed reaction of a 20, 30, 50, 100, 500 thousand pound airplane needs to be seen in realistic situations, and pilots understanding what their airplane is really capable of if you push it to its limits during a recovery
 
thevideographer said:
Thing is I fly a CRJ-200, which is basically the same thing as a Challenger 604, which supposedly got rolled 5 times in this incident.
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PeanuckleCRJ said:
I got rolled at FL280 in a CRJ-200 to more than 45 degrees by a 757-200 descending through our altitude 10 miles in front... that'll wake you up!

As @Cherokee_Cruiser said, current sims can't do full stall training yet. That is no longer to be the case in the coming years with Extended Envelope Training.

The thing we are teaching universally is to always push as a first reaction to an upset to unload the wing... pulling is almost always the wrong response. Then roll using the ailerons to right the airplane, adjust power as necessary, then complete the recovery. Push, Roll, Power, Stabilize. Works great, lasts long time.
Click to expand...

That's a CRJ-200. I was talking about real passenger jetliners. :)
 
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