A & P certification Q

[MikeD]

Why are pilots able to get a "mil-comp" test to instantly get an FAA Commercial certificate with Instrument rating, yet military trained airframe/engine mechanics aren't able to get a similar "mil-comp" for Airframe, Powerplant, or combo A&P?

For that matter, can USAF egress-maintainer or USN Aviation Survival Equipment people get a "mil comp" for FAA Parachure Rigger certificate?

 

[Roger, Roger]

Why are pilots able to get a "mil-comp" test to instantly get an FAA Commercial certificate with Instrument rating, yet military trained airframe/engine mechanics aren't able to get a similar "mil-comp" for Airframe, Powerplant, or combo A&P?

Here is my WAG:
1. From my extremely limited understanding, military mechanics tend to be a lot more specialized. The FAA's PTS for A&P covers a little bit of everything and it seems that the FAA expects A&Ps to be very much jacks of all trades (and many of us are masters of none).

2. Even for the guys that do a little of everything (a little sheetmetal, a little electrical, a little engine) they won't get exposure to probably the most-worked-on thing in the PTS: The Recip Aircraft Engine.

3. I would imagine that military paperwork stuff is substantially different than civilians dealing with AD's, SBs, SILs, etc.

4. It's the FAA being the FAA and no one has put enough pressure on them to make it happen.

Keep in mind that my military experience is limited to watching the one functional Apache at our airport fly around the pattern.

 

[MikeD]

Here is my WAG:
1. From my extremely limited understanding, military mechanics tend to be a lot more specialized. The FAA's PTS for A&P covers a little bit of everything and it seems that the FAA expects A&Ps to be very much jacks of all trades (and many of us are masters of none).

Very well could be. Say a guy is a turbojet engine mechanic, could/should he reasonably quaify for a mil-comp for a Powerplant certificate without the Airframe, or do you have to have both?

2. Even for the guys that do a little of everything (a little sheetmetal, a little electrical, a little engine) they won't get exposure to probably the most-worked-on thing in the PTS: The Recip Aircraft Engine.

So for FAA purposes, one MUST be able to work Recip engines? Say for example, the aforementioned turbojet engine mech wants to get out of the mil and get a job with American Airlines as an engine mech (going turbojet to turbojet, never working on a recip), would he be unable to do so, as the FAA regs are currently written?

3. I would imagine that military paperwork stuff is substantially different than civilians dealing with AD's, SBs, SILs, etc.

It's similar, though worded differently by service.....USAF has TCTO's (FAA: AD's), etc. But I'd think that'd be easy enough to learn in a mil-comp testing setting, much like a mil pilot would have to.

4. It's the FAA being the FAA and no one has put enough pressure on them to make it happen.

Keep in mind that my military experience is limited to watching the one functional Apache at our airport fly around the pattern.

Agree here.

I did find for the Parachute Riggers that there is indeed a mil comp, contained in 14 CFR 65.117 as well as "type ratings" (seat/back/chest/lap) for them, contained in 65.121.

Interesting.

 

[Berkut]

Why are pilots able to get a "mil-comp" test to instantly get an FAA Commercial certificate with Instrument rating, yet military trained airframe/engine mechanics aren't able to get a similar "mil-comp" for Airframe, Powerplant, or combo A&P?

They can, unless I'm misunderstanding what you're asking. As long as they meet the experience requirements of 65.77, all they have to do is pass the written tests and an oral & practical exam.

Check out 8900.1, Volume 5, Chapter 5, Section 2, for more information on applying experience gained in the military towards the requirements of 65.77.

 

[Berkut]

Or were you speaking of someone who has just the military training, but not enough experience to qualify under 65.77?

 

[PeterPilot]

They can, unless I'm misunderstanding what you're asking. As long as they meet the experience requirements of 65.77, all they have to do is pass the written tests and an oral & practical exam.

Check out 8900.1, Volume 5, Chapter 5, Section 2, for more information on applying experience gained in the military towards the requirements of 65.77.

I'm glad you wrote that. I was thinking the same thing, but airworthiness isn't my area. The pilots don't automatically get a commercial certificate. They do have to pass a knowledge (written) test. So, being able to use the experience, but taking a test seems comparable.

 

[Inverted25]

We had a guy here come out the mil after like 5 years working on the C-130 and he had to spend 8 months working the schools maintence shope before he qualified to take the A&P test.

 

[MikeD]

We had a guy here come out the mil after like 5 years working on the C-130 and he had to spend 8 months working the schools maintence shope before he qualified to take the A&P test.

Thats what I mean. Mil pilots don't need "further experience", they can just take the mil-comp test and get the certs. Whereas it seems mil mechs can't just do that with the A&P, although peeps like Parachute Riggers can.

 

[Roger, Roger]

Very well could be. Say a guy is a turbojet engine mechanic, could/should he reasonably quaify for a mil-comp for a Powerplant certificate without the Airframe, or do you have to have both?

You can have just an "A" or just a "P".

So for FAA purposes, one MUST be able to work Recip engines? Say for example, the aforementioned turbojet engine mech wants to get out of the mil and get a job with American Airlines as an engine mech (going turbojet to turbojet, never working on a recip), would he be unable to do so, as the FAA regs are currently written?

In that case, unless American refused to hire him without the A&P (or just the P) my understanding is that they could still hire him and get him a Repairman Certificate which would allow him to sign off the jet engines within the limitations of AA's repair station license for as long as he works for them.

*standard disclaimer about my lack of experience in maintenance, especially at the airline level*

 

[MikeD]

In that case, unless American refused to hire him without the A&P (or just the P) my understanding is that they could still hire him and get him a Repairman Certificate which would allow him to sign off the jet engines within the limitations of AA's repair station license for as long as he works for them.

*standard disclaimer about my lack of experience in maintenance, especially at the airline level*

That was my next question......how does a Repairman Cert differ from an A&P, in terms of scope of practice legally allowed?

 

[Roger, Roger]

That was my next question......how does a Repairman Cert differ from an A&P, in terms of scope of practice legally allowed?

(a) A certificated repairman may perform or supervise the maintenance, preventive maintenance, or alteration of aircraft or aircraft components appropriate to the job for which the repairman was employed and certificated, but only in connection with duties for the certificate holder by whom the repairman was employed and recommended.

In other words, he is limited by his training by the employer and his employer's license.



Also worth noting is the fact that the repairman certificate is invalid when the repairman is no longer employed by the repair station.

 

[FXMXC]

That was my next question......how does a Repairman Cert differ from an A&P, in terms of scope of practice legally allowed?

It differs in that it is issued to the particualr airline and mechanic for a particular dicipline. If you change jobs your repairman does not go with you. Your new company would have to reapply for one on your behalf. Where as the A@P is portable. The repairman cert allows your to sign off a work item that is within the scope of that certificate and NOTHING else. An A@P you can sign off all your own work.There was talk of making a portable repairman certificate but it never came to pass.

 

[JJink]

Thats what I mean. Mil pilots don't need "further experience", they can just take the mil-comp test and get the certs. Whereas it seems mil mechs can't just do that with the A&P, although peeps like Parachute Riggers can.

An AMT has a lot of responsibilities and privileges where a repairman does not. AMT can return an aircraft to service, sign off repairs and alteration, perform 50 and 100 hr inspections, troubleshoot systems from pressurization to deicing systems. Remove and install your engine and prop and make the proper entries in the logbook. If an AMT is also an IA then he can sign off annuals and major repairs and alterations. A repairman is subject and protected to his/her employees repair station license and performs work to a very specific section (Ex: rebuilt prop, rework an altimeter,…). An A&P can be freelancer and do contract work. He could be doing a 100 hr insp on a 172 one day and next be taking the nose gear of a GIV apart for inspection. Also an A&P is a license where a repairman is a certificate. BTW, an A or a P without the other is about as good as titts on a boar, no serious employer will consider you as a full fledge Mech.

Military Mechs do not meet the minimum requirement like the military pilots do (and exceed). They are very good at what they did in the military but to become truly a versatile as a Mech in the civilian world with all its responsibilities they need the extra training so they don’t get in trouble with the FAA. Most of these guys end up being good mechanics but even then they end up somewhere where it is more in line with their former experience. I know many such Mech (awesome guys) and they themselves say they do not feel comfortable to work certain airplanes or some tasks.

 

[esa17]

An AMT has a lot of responsibilities and privileges where a repairman does not. AMT can return an aircraft to service, sign off repairs and alteration, perform 50 and 100 hr inspections, troubleshoot systems from pressurization to deicing systems. Remove and install your engine and prop and make the proper entries in the logbook. If an AMT is also an IA then he can sign off annuals and major repairs and alterations. A repairman is subject and protected to his/her employees repair station license and performs work to a very specific section (Ex: rebuilt prop, rework an altimeter,…). An A&P can be freelancer and do contract work. He could be doing a 100 hr insp on a 172 one day and next be taking the nose gear of a GIV apart for inspection. Also an A&P is a license where a repairman is a certificate. BTW, an A or a P without the other is about as good as titts on a boar, no serious employer will consider you as a full fledge Mech.

Military Mechs do not meet the minimum requirement like the military pilots do (and exceed). They are very good at what they did in the military but to become truly a versatile as a Mech in the civilian world with all its responsibilities they need the extra training so they don’t get in trouble with the FAA. Most of these guys end up being good mechanics but even then they end up somewhere where it is more in line with their former experience. I know many such Mech (awesome guys) and they themselves say they do not feel comfortable to work certain airplanes or some tasks.

The only thing I really take issue with is the license vs. certificate portion. My A&P is a mechanic's certificate which was earned. A license can be bought. The airframe or powerplant is a rating upon that mechanic certificate.

 

[JJink]

The only thing I really take issue with is the license vs. certificate portion. My A&P is a mechanic's certificate which was earned. A license can be bought. The airframe or powerplant is a rating upon that mechanic certificate.

An A&P is a license to learn.
The way I look at it is that you earned your Airframe and your Powerplant certificates from a credited school and then you pass the FAA tests to receive your license to operate...........it is unfortunate that there are ways to buy your license and FAA is trying crackdown on this but regardless one must remember that there is a lot more to an AMT than just a peace of paper.

 

[SIUav8er]

I know several former military mechanics who received authorization to take the A&P (& general) knowledge and practical tests with no further experience or training (ie formal school or work).

Depends on the FSDO you talk to as each case is on an individual basis as to how much credit they get for military work (ie "hours")

I think the core skill are the same, but the regs, paperwork, and mechanic privileges are quite different which is why they are at minimum still required to test. I think on a basic level the training and experience pilots gain in the military is much closer aligned to the civilian world than it is for the military mechanics. Having flown with several military pilots who were flying general aviation for their first time. they had no problem at all with all the basic stuff... ask a military mechanic how to fill out a 337 or do a logbook entry, or whatever and I am sure they wouldnt be familiar

 

[esa17]

An A&P is a license to learn.
The way I look at it is that you earned your Airframe and your Powerplant certificates from a credited school and then you pass the FAA tests to receive your license to operate...........it is unfortunate that there are ways to buy your license and FAA is trying crackdown on this but regardless one must remember that there is a lot more to an AMT than just a peace of paper.

Yes it is, but just like the private pilot certificate it's still a certificate.

I didn't buy mine from a school. My hands, back, neck, and general sanity paid for it over the course of 4 years in a hangar doing the job. So, because of that, you will have to forgive me for being proud of my A&P certificate.

 

[CFI A&P]

Just joined, this is my first post. Sorry for it being a couple months late.

I hold both an A&P and a repairman certificate. The repairman comes in three flavors, repair station employee, to become the builder an experimental amateur built aircraft, and mechanic of a E-LSA aircraft. The E-AB aircraft would be the Vans RV or certain Pitts aircraft.

My repairman is for Non-Destructive Testing (NDT) at a repair station. The difference is the privileges of the A&P mean nothing to the repair station I work for. Since it is a repair station, there is a list of services and limitations that the repair station can do. Such as avionics, propellers... Many of which can not be done by an A&P. As an A&P I can remove a propeller, change the alternator belt and then reinstall the propeller. However, as a repairman I can not. I can only R&R the propeller, since the repair station is not authorized to change alternator belts. If I choose to leave the repair station, or if they ask me to leave, my repairman's certificate is no longer valid. Hope this helps.

 

[MikeD]

Just joined, this is my first post. Sorry for it being a couple months late.

I hold both an A&P and a repairman certificate. The repairman comes in three flavors, repair station employee, to become the builder an experimental amateur built aircraft, and mechanic of a E-LSA aircraft. The E-AB aircraft would be the Vans RV or certain Pitts aircraft.

My repairman is for Non-Destructive Testing (NDT) at a repair station. The difference is the privileges of the A&P mean nothing to the repair station I work for. Since it is a repair station, there is a list of services and limitations that the repair station can do. Such as avionics, propellers... Many of which can not be done by an A&P. As an A&P I can remove a propeller, change the alternator belt and then reinstall the propeller. However, as a repairman I can not. I can only R&R the propeller, since the repair station is not authorized to change alternator belts. If I choose to leave the repair station, or if they ask me to leave, my repairman's certificate is no longer valid. Hope this helps.

Excellent post. Very helpful just as much as all here have been. Appreciate the info, from you as well as from all.

 

[FXMXC]

Just joined, this is my first post. Sorry for it being a couple months late.

I hold both an A&P and a repairman certificate. The repairman comes in three flavors, repair station employee, to become the builder an experimental amateur built aircraft, and mechanic of a E-LSA aircraft. The E-AB aircraft would be the Vans RV or certain Pitts aircraft.

My repairman is for Non-Destructive Testing (NDT) at a repair station. The difference is the privileges of the A&P mean nothing to the repair station I work for. Since it is a repair station, there is a list of services and limitations that the repair station can do. Such as avionics, propellers... Many of which can not be done by an A&P. As an A&P I can remove a propeller, change the alternator belt and then reinstall the propeller. However, as a repairman I can not. I can only R&R the propeller, since the repair station is not authorized to change alternator belts. If I choose to leave the repair station, or if they ask me to leave, my repairman's certificate is no longer valid. Hope this helps.

I am sort of confused..Why would you need a repairman cert if you already have an A@P? The reason I ask is that there are a lot of mechanics with NO A@P or Repairman who work under a repair station. Like the OSM's do at American Airlines. I had a repairman many moons ago for avionics but once I got my A@P the FAA made me surrender my repairman cert. I guess I always thought the A@P covered everything except like inspection where you would need an IA.