Screaming_Emu
Well-Known Member
I almost did that once, but the situation was different.
About 10 minutes after departure from IAD on our way to BTV, they saw Baltimore and excitedly asked "OMG, is that New York City?"
I almost lost it.
A little birdy/ExpressJet
- Thread starter derg
- Start date
I almost did that once, but the situation was different.
About 10 minutes after departure from IAD on our way to BTV, they saw Baltimore and excitedly asked "OMG, is that New York City?"
I almost lost it.
Blackhawk
Well-Known Member
And like it or not in the next 5-10 years the FFD industry will probably drastically change. Don't get me wrong, I don't blame an FO at the five year mark for moving on to a place with faster upgrades. But I've also seen the song and dance before- like the guys who jumped over to Midway for the 737 type rating, only to find themselves in the right seat of a CRJ, then literally stranded at overnights when their company left them high and dry on 9/11. If FFD mergers do happen (and I do think we will see quite a bit of consolidation), those who gave up a seniority number for a fast upgrade could suddenly find themselves behind their previous company classmates.
The airlines are a funny industry. Good luck can be bad luck. Bad luck can be good luck. I had new hire classmates who went to the EMB-120, I got "lucky" and went to the ATR. I sat reserve, flying once every 2 months. They maxed out every month. They got the faster upgrade and got the call to wear the double-breasted suit because of that. Frustrated, I watched them move on. Of course they were hired in August 2001 and were in new-hire class when someone came in, collected their books and told them not to let the door hit them on the way out. In hindsight these were the lucky ones. When they hit the streets there were some flying jobs out there. Guys/gals furloughed later found nothing in the aviation industry.
So life happens. Yes, evaluate your future and your options. But getting bitter and ranting about dumb luck is like doing the same when there is a ground stop.
89-LX
Well-Known Member
I tell a few captains that all the time....in a joking manner of course though.
But then again, a lot of the captains up in DTW are cool, and know I'm joking around with them. I would never try that with out southern boy captains who would probably explode.
Blackhawk
Well-Known Member
I, of course, am the coolest. At least that's what I tell myself.
And no, these guys were not joking. Ironically every one of them was junior (4 year FOs), to the pilots I fly with out of DTW (normally 7-8 year FOs). Funny how different crew bases will take on different personalities.
Screaming_Emu
Well-Known Member
Exactly why when IAD closed the mantra was "anywhere but Atlanta."
Blackhawk
Well-Known Member
Wait, were we flying a few weeks ago when my daughter went through her meltdown as chronicled in the family section? I probably should have called in sick.
Screaming_Emu
Well-Known Member
I do not believe so.
JustinS
Well-Known Member
Serious question here... Should I apply before I meet company's minimum requirements, or wait until I meet those minimum requirements? I've heard both sides of the argument, applying early shows initiative / really wanting the job, while applying early shows your lack of basic comprehensive reading skills to realize that you do not in fact meet the minimums... Right now I'm just racking up the 121 SIC Turbine time, but I don't meet any minimums for any place yet to move on. I've read both sides of the argument, but with the changing climate, I'm wondering what recruiters are really looking for in their "points system."
Of course it's not all about the numbers, but that is definitely one facet that can really make a difference on when you apply / when you SHOULD apply in order to gear towards getting the coveted interview.
Autothrust Blue
Welcome aboard the Washington State Ferries
I can't tell if you're being funny/sarcastic on this reply or not...but that might be funny, minus the meltdown of course.
Blackhawk
Well-Known Member
I was making an attempt at humor. I was not 100% on my game those two trips. 20/20 hindsight I should have called in sick and probably would have were I not flying with FOs that were so experienced. CP did let me drop last RT so I get could home and get my daughter moved into her new college.I can't tell if you're being funny/sarcastic on this reply or not...but that might be funny, minus the meltdown of course.
Autothrust Blue
Welcome aboard the Washington State Ferries
We've all had "those" weeks - which is why, barring some obvious undesired aircraft state, I have a two-event rule.
Cherokee_Cruiser
Bronteroc
IMO it's not entitlement. It's just frustration and venting. Lets be honest, RJ FO wages were not meant to be lived on for the better part of a decade.
Keep in mind that at Emu's place and at the regional I was at, back in the day it was very common for FOs to upgrade at 1-3 years. At my old place, they took DECs for a while and most upgraded there in less than one year to 2 years. Guys hired in 2007 (like Emu and I) were then totally hosed once Age 65 passed, and less so by the recession. Age 65 stagnated any major hiring for 5 years, so us regional guys were stuck for those 5 years in the right seat. I wouldn't call a complaint an entitlement, it's just venting. But telling a CA he's taking your seat is pushing it. That CA is still there because the majors stagnated their hiring. And now they get stuck up in their own mighty greatness and/or call only the military or the heavily connected.
At my current gig, I had a United 747 CA jumpseater up to SEA who said he was on the 777 back in 2007, and that once Age 65 passed, it was good for him but bad for his FOs, and that he felt bad for them, and that they complained because they were stuck in the right seat of a 777 for 5 more years. I told him I was stuck in the right seat of a RJ making 30 grand for those 5 years. That got him to admit that they didn't have it that bad, and it was still a good deal compared to LCCs and regionals.
Another factor is that past performance is not an indicator of future performance/payout.
Derg, for your comparison, yeah you weren't a 727 CA or a L1011 CA but at least everyone at your level (United, Continental, Northwest, American, US Airways) all stagnated the same way and there were no 6 year upgrades after 9/11 (save Continental for a short while). So everyone went through the same pain.
And to compare that along the same lines, I have 3.5 years here at my company and I'm barely at the 50% of the FO list. Now these same 3.5 years if at Spirit would make one a line holding A320 Captain. At jetBlue it would be a reserve A320 Captain. At Frontier, it's a reserve A320 Captain. At Allegiant, line holding CA on the MD80 or A320. So obviously I picked the wrong LCC. I'm no different than any other pilot that went to the other LCCs 3.5 years ago but their career has had a vast different outcome making 1.5-2x what I make. Now that having been said, I'm not gonna complain because at least at this LCC, even if you're stuck in the right seat, you can still make six figures. So I make cheddar and go home. If I was at my regional today, I'd be at 8 years and still be a FO making bad regional wages. Emu is in this same boat. As are others. Now again if someone says the CA shouldn't be there, and that they are stagnating the FO career because they are not moving on, that's not really the FO's place to say that. But if a regional FO wants to vent about his predicament, I get it. I can understand.
Cherokee_Cruiser
Bronteroc
In 2.5 years, I will hit that fifth digit and a comma, with 0 TPIC.
Blackhawk
Well-Known Member
Then I would say you did not do due diligence and investigate airline employment history. In the 1960s majors were so desperate for pilots some were taking pilots with fresh commercial tickets. Upgrades were very rapid.
Then the 70a happened. Sorry, the recession or 73 is up close and personal for me and from my memory was worse than the "Great Recession". Throw in Vietnam ending and the glut of military pilots looking for work, the introduction of deregulation and the turmoil it caused and the airlines experienced years of stagnation. Eight years right seat? What about 15 years staring at a panel.
The early 90s also weren't great. My brother, a P-3 pilot with thousands of hours of international PIC time could only find a PFT job in the right seat of a Jetscream with TSA. Believe it or not TSA was worse then than today. Yeah, he finally got on with NWA, but he paid his dues.
Now don't get me wrong. I do feel for you guys. When we need coffee, I buy. The first round is always on me. But I have to remind many of my FOs that they are still in their 20's. Even if it takes ANOTHER 8 years to make it to the big dance (unlikely), they will be in their mid 30s. That's 30+ years at a legacy carrier. I think they will survive.
Jack-A-Roe
Well-Known Member
A few months ago I was fighting to decide to stay at XJT to finally see an upgrade or go to an ACMI. I must say that I don't regret leaving any percent. It's amazing how blinded you get when you're busy focusing on a moving target like upgrading.
Cherokee_Cruiser
Bronteroc
Again, I wouldn't really have an issue with if, in your example, everyone was sitting sideways on a panel for 10+ years. That makes it easier to swallow when no one else is any better off, and everyone is sharing the pain. It's not the same when some regionals are willingly taking on concessions by voting yes and getting airplanes awarded from other airlines, which end up stagnating because they are losing planes. So you have a 2 year RJ CA at one place while others are still stuck and 8 year RJ FOs through no fault of their own. That makes it tougher to swallow. Or in my case when I'm half way up the FO list whereas the same people at my seniority level at Spirit, Frontier, jetBlue, and Allegiant are CAs making much more than I. Then it ends up being a "I picked the wrong carrier" kinda thing. I can't quit now and go to those places because I've already missed that growth phase.
Blackhawk
Well-Known Member
It happens. I knew guys who flew for Braniff, Eastern and Pan Am. Guys who started out at COMAIR, made their way to the left seat, then hit the street and are still FOs at a regional. Same with guys at ACA. Theses guys/gals really got hosed.
I'll be the first to admit my luck with airlines has been great and I've been blessed. But I've also had "carreer moments" that would make your hair stand up. Still, again, I sympathize with you guys. Just understand that in the scheme of life things are not that bad.
BTW, having been an FO I would not give that up to be a captain at Allegient.
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89-LX
Well-Known Member
I believe I was flying with the captain who was trying to pick up your trip or swap our trips with you, but kept getting denied because it took him over his weekly FDP limit. I remember spending a good 45 minutes on the overnight trying to figure out how he was over, because my numbers didn't match what scheduling was saying. Turned out, schedulings numbers were wrong, but mine were as well too. The late duty in on day 1 combined with the early duty in on day 7 is what put it over.
Glad to hear that the CP was able to drop the last RT for you.
aviategw
Well-Known Member
From a 30,000 foot view, the ridiculously long upgrade at XJT is more related to the failed assumptions made by each of the three stakeholders than anything else.
The parent of the triplets assumed that merging the least favorite two red-haired children, without increasing costs, would lead to an ability to have more control over the market and return to the glory days of yearly 10% margins. This would have made the 'Board very happy.
The pilot representational bodies of both said red-headed stepchildren assumed that stomping their feet and holding their breath until they got their way would have no consequences. The result of this lack of a strategy is currently playing out.
Finally, the mainline 'partner' carriers assumed that creating a market in which the regional FFD carriers had to do unhealthy things to compete for business would best serve the long-term interests of the partner carrier. From the vantage point of a lowly FFD pilot, the proverbial excrement appears to be enroute to the rotary air mover with regard to pilot labor supply. It appears very much that copious amounts of the aforementioned excrement will land on all of us before this period of history is behind us.
Solutions?
The parent of the triplets assumed that merging the least favorite two red-haired children, without increasing costs, would lead to an ability to have more control over the market and return to the glory days of yearly 10% margins. This would have made the 'Board very happy.
The pilot representational bodies of both said red-headed stepchildren assumed that stomping their feet and holding their breath until they got their way would have no consequences. The result of this lack of a strategy is currently playing out.
Finally, the mainline 'partner' carriers assumed that creating a market in which the regional FFD carriers had to do unhealthy things to compete for business would best serve the long-term interests of the partner carrier. From the vantage point of a lowly FFD pilot, the proverbial excrement appears to be enroute to the rotary air mover with regard to pilot labor supply. It appears very much that copious amounts of the aforementioned excrement will land on all of us before this period of history is behind us.
Solutions?
PhilosopherPilot
Well-Known Member
Life has always been like that, and not just in our industry. If you worked at Enron in the 1990s, things looked great --- until they didn't. Chance is a huge part of life. It seems like "the kids today" don't roll with it very well. I wonder why that is?