A little birdy/ExpressJet

Screaming_Emu said:
Quick returns are one thing. Any career progression at all is something else entirely.
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It's funny actually. I was just having this conversation with my CA and MV instructor last night. The instructor I am already very familiar with, but my CA has been here for 33 years. He flew three different airplanes in his first year at this place back in the early 80s. Upgraded quickly to the Bandit, and remarked on how often there was movement during the initial two decades he was here. One thing led to another and he ended up calling this place home and he deserves to retire from this place to be honest. He's one of the ones that made this place what it is today and I genuinely think those guys should be rewarded for a long period of service to this operation, regardless of its name.

However, on a break, he pulled me aside and actually apologized for the reality folks like yourself and I are living. It wasn't his place to apologize, but he recognize that the past eight years of stagnation is the longest he has ever seen and he recognizes that its pretty demoralizing. After that he gave encouraging words about the future and that if folks just keep their heads screwed on properly and stay out of trouble and make an effort to leave, they'll be able to leave. He shrugged off the idea of upgrading here since it would be 1) a QOL hit for a senior FO to go and sit Reserve barely flying and 2) the upgrade and TPIC isn't what it once was and that a QOL hit isn't necessarily worth it but that it's a personal decision.

The reality @Screaming_Emu is that there are clearly certain folks at our shop who are in the left seat and find the situation that is going on to be either 1) not an issue for them since they're here and will likely be here for quite some time or 2) recognize that many of us could have ran off many years ago (or even this year) to chase an upgrade yet we didn't because of ________________ (x, y, or z reasoning) and they are appreciative of our commitment and work ethic (that is if you don't suck at working for a living).

We will get there. When that happens, I don't know...but I don't necessarily plan on waiting for ExpressJet to make my career progression goals happen, if you know what I mean.
 
surreal1221 said:
It's funny actually. I was just having this conversation with my CA and MV instructor last night. The instructor I am already very familiar with, but my CA has been here for 33 years. He flew three different airplanes in his first year at this place back in the early 80s. Upgraded quickly to the Bandit, and remarked on how often there was movement during the initial two decades he was here. One thing led to another and he ended up calling this place home and he deserves to retire from this place to be honest. He's one of the ones that made this place what it is today and I genuinely think those guys should be rewarded for a long period of service to this operation, regardless of its name.

However, on a break, he pulled me aside and actually apologized for the reality folks like yourself and I are living. It wasn't his place to apologize, but he recognize that the past eight years of stagnation is the longest he has ever seen and he recognizes that its pretty demoralizing. After that he gave encouraging words about the future and that if folks just keep their heads screwed on properly and stay out of trouble and make an effort to leave, they'll be able to leave. He shrugged off the idea of upgrading here since it would be 1) a QOL hit for a senior FO to go and sit Reserve barely flying and 2) the upgrade and TPIC isn't what it once was and that a QOL hit isn't necessarily worth it but that it's a personal decision.

The reality @Screaming_Emu is that there are clearly certain folks at our shop who are in the left seat and find the situation that is going on to be either 1) not an issue for them since they're here and will likely be here for quite some time or 2) recognize that many of us could have ran off many years ago (or even this year) to chase an upgrade yet we didn't because of ________________ (x, y, or z reasoning) and they are appreciative of our commitment and work ethic (that is if you don't suck at working for a living).

We will get there. When that happens, I don't know...but I don't necessarily plan on waiting for ExpressJet to make my career progression goals happen, if you know what I mean.
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Not quite true. In the '90s things were pretty stagnant. I was told 5 years to upgrade in the EMB-120, 8 years on the ATR. CRJ? Don't think about it. You dis not even get it as a new hire.
Of course things changed rapidly and them' the breaks.
It's not that I don't have sympathy for FOs who have been here 8 years, but I do get tired of the entitlement attitude. Not at my current base, but I have had FOs tell me to my face that I am in their seat and messing up THEIR career by not moving on. Usually it came from those at about the 5 year mark. Sorry I don't live my life for you (you being the guys who said this).
I guess I view career hiccups like LGA during a melt down. It happens. You can either set the parking break and go to your happy place, or you can rant at the world. Both are equally effective at changing things, but I find myself much happier with the former attitude.
 
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Blackhawk said:
...but I do get tired of the entitlement attitude. Not at my current base, but I have had FOs tell me to my face that I am in their seat and messing up THEIR career by not moving on. Usually it came from those at about the 5 year mark.
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Regardless of where it came from or whose mouth it came from, such an attitude is never acceptable. I blame any combination of the following: No prior professional experience, College marketing departments, College professors, inaccurate sense of reality, false career expectations, failure to recognize reality, mommy's nipple still attached to pilot's lips, daddy's checking account still linked to pilot's savings account, etc.

You, yes YOU, are in the seat because YOU chose to be in it. The end. Certain FOs deserve to be knocked back to the street to get a taste of the real world before complaining. I could never imagine telling a Captain that you need to get out of my seat. Talk about a toxic cockpit and barrier to communication and the risk it poses to CRM and TEM.

Blackhawk said:
What makes you think you won't see the left seat? Or are you on the side that wants to burn the place down? If that's the case you may be right.
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Nah, he's not one of them. He is, however, one of our coworkers in the D.
 
Tell your first officers, "That's why it's called the Entitlement Generation. No one owes anyone anything and promises in the professional world are promises and not guarantees".

Hell, if I got all that I was promised, I'd be a 44 year old line-holding MD-11 captain in my last 8 years at Southernjets and looking forward to 60% of my final average earnings being paid monthly in my pension until the day I croaked.

Sometime will move your cheese. And then move it again.
 
surreal1221 said:
Nah, he's not one of them. He is, however, one of our coworkers in the D.
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I would like nothing more for that to be the case. Unfortunately I have come to the conclusion that their MEC and the majority of their pilots feel they would have been better off by themselves and want to return to that state.
 
Blackhawk said:
I would like nothing more for that to be the case. Unfortunately I have come to the conclusion that their MEC and the majority of their pilots feel they would have been better off by themselves and want to return to that state.
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Word.

Their CPAs only go into 2017. It'll be okay. I'm sure Terry Vais has a plan...
 
Blackhawk said:
What makes you think you won't see the left seat? Or are you on the side that wants to burn the place down? If that's the case you may be right.
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Math.

And no, I'm based where you are. Just tired of hearing from people in the left seat that I should be thankful just to be here.
 
Screaming_Emu said:
Math.

And no, I'm based where you are. Just tired of hearing from people in the left seat that I should be thankful just to be here.
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It's probably because in the scheme of life I have been in work situations far, far worse than yours.
Actually the math is that in a little while the upgrade time will suddenly jump. It may be 8 years now but there is a large gap when we did not hire.
 
Blackhawk said:
It's probably because in the scheme of life I have been in work situations far, far worse than yours.
Actually the math is that in a little while the upgrade time will suddenly jump. It may be 8 years now but there is a large gap when we did not hire.
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All the long upgrade places say this. It works out well for the guys hired in late 2010/really early 2011, but the guys hired 2012+ still have hundreds and hundreds of people in front of them to go through before they upgrade and not hundreds and hundreds of people hired behind them fueling the upgrades. This keeps all the upgrades relatively long regardless of the hop from 08-10.
 
Blackhawk said:
It's probably because in the scheme of life I have been in work situations far, far worse than yours.
Actually the math is that in a little while the upgrade time will suddenly jump. It may be 8 years now but there is a large gap when we did not hire.
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There are a lot of guys successfully jumping from the right seat to some very attractive carriers.

If FO's are waiting until the golden PIC time to start looking around, they're going to miss the current wave.

Once you hit that fifth digit and a comma in your flight time, might as well get comfortable I hear.
 
Blackhawk said:
It's probably because in the scheme of life I have been in work situations far, far worse than yours.
Actually the math is that in a little while the upgrade time will suddenly jump. It may be 8 years now but there is a large gap when we did not hire.
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As have I. Been working since I was 14. Just because things could be worse doesn't mean they can't be better.

At the current rate of upgrade/attrition that gap will still take years to happen. And that's if we don't keep hemorrhaging airplanes, which if we can't find FOs to come here will keep happening.
 
Blackhawk said:
2012?? Seriously??? Now that's where I have an issue. When they get to the six year point, fine.
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You're senior enough to know how upgrades work. Not all of the hires from 2010 and 2011 are upgrading in the same bid (when it gets around to that). And if you have a good 600+ guys that have to upgrade to get to 2012 hires, even 20/mo still makes it 2+ more years before 2012 hires. so now it's 2017-2018 and 2012 hires are just now getting a look. etc. etc. I'm just rambling at this point. The "oh it's about to jump to 2010/11 hires" still means nothing when it comes to junior FOs on property.
 
Dexter said:
You're senior enough to know how upgrades work. Not all of the hires from 2010 and 2011 are upgrading in the same bid (when it gets around to that). And if you have a good 600+ guys that have to upgrade to get to 2012 hires, even 20/mo still makes it 2+ more years before 2012 hires. so now it's 2017-2018 and 2012 hires are just now getting a look. etc. etc. I'm just rambling at this point. The "oh it's about to jump to 2010/11 hires" still means nothing when it comes to junior FOs on property.
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That must be the ERJ side because we just started the '07 hires.
 
Blackhawk said:
2012?? Seriously??? Now that's where I have an issue. When they get to the six year point, fine.
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I have no problem with 5-8 year FOs being upset about still being FOs. Pay for regional FO's has not changed in the last 15 or so years, buying power has been going down for the last 15 years. How long should people be forced to put their life on hold waiting to make more than living pay check to pay check?
 
Gonzo said:
I have no problem with 5-8 year FOs being upset about still being FOs. Pay for regional FO's has not changed in the last 15 or so years, buying power has been going down for the last 15 years. How long should people be forced to put their life on hold waiting to make more than living pay check to pay check?
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I don't have a problem with 8 year FOs being frustrated. But let's do the math. 2015-2012=3years. Three year FO being pissed? Sorry. Wish it were different but not much sympathy.
And for those trying to "do the math" and project how many years or months they have to upgrade. Again, set your mental parking brake and relax. Yeah, it may be 8 years but it may well be four. It only takes one contract lost/won for all projections to change. I can't tell you how many times I've seen upgrade projections be all wrong.
 
Dexter said:
You're senior enough to know how upgrades work. Not all of the hires from 2010 and 2011 are upgrading in the same bid (when it gets around to that). And if you have a good 600+ guys that have to upgrade to get to 2012 hires, even 20/mo still makes it 2+ more years before 2012 hires. so now it's 2017-2018 and 2012 hires are just now getting a look. etc. etc. I'm just rambling at this point. The "oh it's about to jump to 2010/11 hires" still means nothing when it comes to junior FOs on property.
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Yes, I am. Trying to do the math and projecting it is fruitless. I can't tell you have many times I've seen it turn out wrong, both ways. I remember several guys who went to ContExp for the quick upgrade, then came over to ASA due to the stagnation there. Again, one contract won/lost can change everything.
 
Blackhawk said:
Yes, I am. Trying to do the math and projecting it is fruitless. I can't tell you have many times I've seen it turn out wrong, both ways. I remember several guys who went to ContExp for the quick upgrade, then came over to ASA due to the stagnation there. Again, one contract won/lost can change everything.
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ExpressJet as a whole is so large that new flying will only provide a minimum impact on upgrade times. Whether you like it or not the airlines that are able to fill classes are the airlines with very short upgrades. Heck, they don't even offer a bonus because the low upgrade time is enough to attract new hires.

If your airline can't hire that means upgrades can't happen and will cause not only more shrinkage but even more stagnation. Yes. A 5 year FO should be worried at XJT that they may be stuck making 40k a year for a while. Actually, all FOs should be worried.
 
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