A call form crew scheduling...

[hook_dupin]

It is actually that simple. The flaw in your evaluation is frequency.

Your comparisons assume that the company will use a pilot on premium pay on a regular basis (i.e. up to a line value worth of flying per month). This is never the case.

Remember, when a pilot is on staff he is costing every day, 365/year, whether he is flying or not. Take that guy out of the equation and substitute him with some premium pay flying every once and a while from someone already on staff anyway and the company is going out make out big, even if they payed 300% pay

Correct on the frequency assumption. I could have broken it up this way:

If the company only had some sporadic trips to fill that don't really equal the annual cost of bringing back a furloughed guy, then premium rate flying makes sense all ways around. Do it if able and negotiate the highest rate possible. Those few trips that are either filled or cancelled aren't going to bring back the furloughed guy, as it's not wise to have a guy on the roster who only flies a few hours per month. I'd argue that a flying organization that has this type of call-in rate has their pilot staffing as perfect as possible.

It's the case where the company is using premium-rate flying as a stop-gap for poor personnel policy that I'm really trying to attack. I.e...the company has enough extra flying to potentially bring a guy back, but decides not to because other pilots are willing to work overtime at a low cost. If it costs a company 150% of an annual salary to bring back a guy from the street, but folks are willing to fly extra for less than 150%, then all those willing to fly have made the case for keeping others on the street. If folks are demanding more than what it would cost to bring back the furlough guy, then it will be in the company's best interest to re-issue an ID badge. When offered, negotiate for as high a rate as possible to drive the company to bring back a guy who must fly that line at the normal rate.

Hopefully, most companies are operating in the first case and not the second when they call. I hope that's why ALPA has approved OT with guys furloughed. Of course, you don't really know (other than through standard pilot lounge rumor mill) which case the company is in when they call. Thankfully, bold-face is the same for both: do it if able and negotiate the highest rate possible.

Again...arm-chair economist here (among many other things)

 

[derg]

so... paying, 4 $80/hour pilots for 80 hours each plus $160/hr for another 20 hours each is cheaper than paying 5 $80/hr pilots for 80 hours each? still doesn't add up.

If management thinks they're lowering costs that way, they need to be fired for blatantly squandering company & stockholder money. If that's the way they do things in the airline industry, it's no wonder airlines go broke right & left.

Aye yi yi.

What is your experience in the airline business before I continue?


Sent from my TRS-80

 

[Tram]

If that's the way they do things in the airline industry, it's no wonder airlines go broke right & left.

Yep...

 

[X-Forces]

Correct on the frequency assumption. I could have broken it up this way:

If the company only had some sporadic trips to fill that don't really equal the annual cost of bringing back a furloughed guy, then premium rate flying makes sense all ways around. Do it if able and negotiate the highest rate possible. Those few trips that are either filled or cancelled aren't going to bring back the furloughed guy, as it's not wise to have a guy on the roster who only flies a few hours per month. I'd argue that a flying organization that has this type of call-in rate has their pilot staffing as perfect as possible.

It's the case where the company is using premium-rate flying as a stop-gap for poor personnel policy that I'm really trying to attack. I.e...the company has enough extra flying to potentially bring a guy back, but decides not to because other pilots are willing to work overtime at a low cost. If it costs a company 150% of an annual salary to bring back a guy from the street, but folks are willing to fly extra for less than 150%, then all those willing to fly have made the case for keeping others on the street. If folks are demanding more than what it would cost to bring back the furlough guy, then it will be in the company's best interest to re-issue an ID badge. When offered, negotiate for as high a rate as possible to drive the company to bring back a guy who must fly that line at the normal rate.

Hopefully, most companies are operating in the first case and not the second when they call. I hope that's why ALPA has approved OT with guys furloughed. Of course, you don't really know (other than through standard pilot lounge rumor mill) which case the company is in when they call. Thankfully, bold-face is the same for both: do it if able and negotiate the highest rate possible.

Again...arm-chair economist here (among many other things)

Now you have the idea.

As crap as it might sound, you have to factor in scenario 3 in your example.

It's the case where the company is using premium-rate flying as a stop-gap for poor personnel policy that I'm really trying to attack. I.e...the company has enough extra flying to potentially bring a guy back, but decides not to because other pilots are willing to work overtime at a low cost. If it costs a company 150% of an annual salary to bring back a guy from the street, but folks are willing to fly extra for less than 150%, then all those willing to fly have made the case for keeping others on the street. If folks are demanding more than what it would cost to bring back the furlough guy, then it will be in the company's best interest to re-issue an ID badge. When offered, negotiate for as high a rate as possible to drive the company to bring back a guy who must fly that line at the normal rate.

Or folks not willing to fly for premium, but instead will be extended or junior maned into flying they don't want in order to make up for the shortcomings in staffing.

Here's the deal, the are not going to bring the guys back off the street because they know the flying will be covered, whether it is from voluntary or involuntary staffing.

This is why I said earlier in the thread, you can say that you won't pick up and OT with guys on the street, but in the end someone else is going to get screwed and the guys will stay on the street. Trust me, they are not canceling trips because guys are not going to pick up OT.


BTW. For the record, this is not an attempt to defend my own position on picking up OT. I think I have flown single digit OT in two years, I value my time at home. I am just stating what is.

 

[jtrain609]

Aye yi yi.

What is your experience in the airline business before I continue?


Sent from my TRS-80

Hey so...can we just break this down?

Whatever academic reasons folks have for for thinking it's ok to pick up open time when people are on furlough, you're a piece of crap.

Is that too direct? Because frankly, I'm a little sick of the pseudo intellectualism that the internet likes to spit out. Having been on furlough, I'd be pissed to find out guys were picking up open time while the company decided that they didn't need the services of about 350 of us.

 

[derg]

I couldn't imagine calling to check in on the two furloughed Delta pilots I "sponsored" during our darker days and saying "Dude, I just picked up a sweet five day green slip" you know, companies gotta stay in business and Derg makes phat loot.

How are y'all doing on public assistance."


Sent from my TRS-80

 

[Screaming_Emu]

You can only get JMed if you want to.

Always answer the call, then yell to someone else in the room "yo, toss me another beer!"

 

[wheelsup]

This is why I said earlier in the thread, you can say that you won't pick up and OT with guys on the street, but in the end someone else is going to get screwed and the guys will stay on the street. Trust me, they are not canceling trips because guys are not going to pick up OT.

Not to mention, every line going from min guarantee to 90+ hours.

I couldn't imagine calling to check in on the two furloughed Delta pilots I "sponsored" during our darker days and saying "Dude, I just picked up a sweet five day green slip" you know, companies gotta stay in business and Derg makes phat loot.

How are y'all doing on public assistance."


Sent from my TRS-80

Unfortunately that sums up the industry quite nicely. "I got mine now I'm pulling up the ladder". Flashback to Contract 2000 for UAL, huge pay raises but going from 50 to 350 RJs overnight. Senior guys sold the junior guys down the river. The entire pay structure is set up like that as well. The carrot at the end encourages guys to go to the commuters at the chance of "making it big". That's how it is, we all play the game, but to pretend it's something different and the union is "for the pilots" is bunk. The union of pilots are in it for themselves. Can't blame them, that is human nature.

 

[Mike H]

Aye yi yi.

What is your experience in the airline business before I continue?


Sent from my TRS-80

None. Does that make me a bad person? A management stooge?

What is your mangement experience outside of aviation?

I merely took the math you provided and showed that it doesn't add up. Should I have shown my work?

 

[jtrain609]

It makes it hard for you to understand what you're discussing, and thus provides a frame of reference for others.

 

[X-Forces]

Always answer the call, then yell to someone else in the room "yo, toss me another beer!"

Oh, no problem F/O Simth. The JM is actually for an overnight with a sign-in of 14:20 tomorrow. See you then.

 

[Screaming_Emu]

Oh, no problem F/O Simth. The JM is actually for an overnight with a sign-in of 14:20 tomorrow. See you then.

Did I mention i'm in Tokyo?

 

[wheelsup]

Did I mention i'm in Tokyo?

You guys are so cute. Nobody gets JM'd answering the phone unless they are a RSV and they must. With 15 days off you're at work half the time. Which means 50% of the pilot group can be rerouted and extended without even needing to be contacted via phone bragging about drinking a beer. I don't know why pilots think they can outsmart the company, it's not like they haven't heard it all before.

Your contract will dictate junior manning (or whatever it's called at xyz company). For most companies except one that I know of, it's a contractual obligation to accept the junior man. Just the same as it's the companies contractual obligation to pay negotiated pay rates or give min days off.

 

[Mike H]

Not to look like a smart ass- although I am one- but people who don't know what they're talking about aren't going to understand what I'm talking about either.

Let's revisit Derg's example: 400 hours a month divided up among 5 pilots = 80 hours each, If each pilot is paid, for instance $80/hr, each pilot would be paid $6400/month. Together, that's $32000. Take away one pilot and divide his 80 hours 4 ways- that's 20 hours. Each of the 4 remaining pilots gets another 20 hours, but since it's premium work, they get paid, say $160/hr, which means each pilot ets his original $6400 plus $3200 for a total of $9600 each for a combined total of $38400. Now you may not like it, but $38400 is always going to be more than $32000. It will always work out to be more even if the premium rate is only 1¢ more than the regular rate. Sorry if you don't like facts.

And anybody in management who claims (or even thinks) that they're saving money by doing it this way needs to be fired for incompetence.

 

[wheelsup]

Not to look like a smart ass- although I am one- but people who don't know what they're talking about aren't going to understand what I'm talking about either.

Let's revisit Derg's example: 400 hours a month divided up among 5 pilots = 80 hours each, If each pilot is paid, for instance $80/hr, each pilot would be paid $6400/month. Together, that's $32000. Take away one pilot and divide his 80 hours 4 ways- that's 20 hours. Each of the 4 remaining pilots gets another 20 hours, but since it's premium work, they get paid, say $160/hr, which means each pilot ets his original $6400 plus $3200 for a total of $9600 each for a combined total of $38400. Now you may not like it, but $38400 is always going to be more than $32000. It will always work out to be more even if the premium rate is only 1¢ more than the regular rate. Sorry if you don't like facts.

And anybody in management who claims (or even thinks) that they're saving money by doing it this way needs to be fired for incompetence.

When companies furlough it's because of a loss of hours (normally, it might be a political ploy but that us rare). For example mine furloughed back in 2008 when we lost roughly 3000 hours a month of block flying.

3000 hours / 75 hours was 40 pilots. We downgraded right around 40 (I was #20) and furloughed IIRC around 70 or 80 guys. That tells me were were overstaffed on the FO side by about 40 guys. Reason for that was the company hired in anticipation of guys leaving which never materialized due to everyone cutting back and furloughing.

That being said there are some additional savings. Healthcare costs, training costs, etc. But that can be outweighed by the fact that you are paying the more senior guys more to begin with, and even more on top of that when they get premium pay. Lots of variables.

You are correct overall though IMO but don't expect logic and reason to win the day here.

 

[X-Forces]

You guys are so cute. Nobody gets JM'd answering the phone unless they are a RSV and they must. With 15 days off you're at work half the time. Which means 50% of the pilot group can be rerouted and extended without even needing to be contacted via phone bragging about drinking a beer. I don't know why pilots think they can outsmart the company, it's not like they haven't heard it all before.

Your contract will dictate junior manning (or whatever it's called at xyz company). For most companies except one that I know of, it's a contractual obligation to accept the junior man. Just the same as it's the companies contractual obligation to pay negotiated pay rates or give min days off.

Exactly.

All the talk of phones, what about the typical waylay as you open the cockpit door? I have had that happen on more then one occasion. You sure can't just pull out a beer or claim that you are in the far east then.