9E TA Reached

Cherokee_Cruiser said:
How is it irony?
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Because you out of ALL people aren't one to talk about fighting hard to get a job. You bought your way into your first job and through a few contacts were able to make your way into your second at a company that was hiring about 85% of the people it interviewed. Don't get me wrong. I think it's great you were able to make your way in the industry and are in a place you feel happy about, but it's very ironic that you'd be hooraying the idea that people should work their ass off to get a job.
 
BobDDuck said:
Because you out of ALL people aren't one to talk about fighting hard to get a job. You bought your way into your first job and through a few contacts were able to make your way into your second at a company that was hiring about 85% of the people it interviewed. Don't get me wrong. I think it's great you were able to make your way in the industry and are in a place you feel happy about, but it's very ironic that you'd be hooraying the idea that people should work their ass off to get a job.
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You're misinformed about me.

"Bought your way into your first job."
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Incorrect. I attended a RJ program that was 9E-specific, but at the end of the program you were guaranteed nothing. Everyone had to interview, and it was the same interview that everyone else did. You could still screw it up, and end up without a job. How's that for "buying a job?" In fact, the guys with that kind of attitude never made it. Of my 9E interview group, 6 of 10 got hired. A 60% success rate in an interview isn't exactly what I'd call buying a job. I have a long list of pilots at this now-defunct flight school that came out with nothing in the end.

"and through a few contacts were able to make your way into your second at a company that was hiring about 85% of the people it interviewed"
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Where do you get this kind of stuff?!?

Fact one: I knew zero people at my current employer. Zilch, nada!

And second fact, my employer has one of the lowest interview pass acceptance rates out there, based on the interview gouges. It was very common for them to take 0 to 50% of the interview candidates. That's right, there was one interview group in which zero got hired! If they don't think you're the right candidate, they will not hire you, even if that means everyone. In the interview group prior to my interview month, they hired 2 out of 12. In my interview group, they hired 5 out of 11.

As for working their asses off....

First, I flew close to 1,000 hrs every year in 2008, 2009, 2010, and 2011. I could have just accepted the status-quo schedule of 75-80 hours, but I knew time was important and I had to get that to improve my resume. I was bought off in Nov/Dec to stay under limits and ended the years with about 975-998 hours.

Then, when it became clear that there was no movement at 9E and it was a dead end, I started to improve my qualifications even more by going out on my own to obtain the ATP. While some were arguing about how a ATP written test should be valid beyond the 2-yrs if you do the ATP elsewhere, I got right to work and started studying for the ATP written because I knew a DPE in a Piper multi engine would want a fresh valid written. I studied for two months (not those ATP one day memorization courses), and I actually tried to learn the material. I obtained the ATP written again, since my original from being hired at a regional would not be valid anymore.

I then spent $2,300 out of pocket (plus hotel and meals) to get the ATP in a Seneca. That was hard work. Going from RJ flying into a general aviation for an ATP ride was a weird transition, but I wanted to do it (and I had to do it) because it was the only way to boost the resume and meet the requirements for LCCs like JetBlue, Spirit, and Virign America.

After obtaining the ATP, my applications were out to at least two dozen airlines, anyone and everyone. Some airlines I didn't even know existed. SkyKing Airlines, Aloha Air Cargo, JetBlue, Virgin America, Spirit, Amerijet, Allegiant, Hawaiian, US Airways, Skylease Cargo, Emirates, Qatar, Eva, Atlas Air, Kalitta, USA Jet, and some more I can't remember off the top of my head. For some of those companies, the applicaton process took several hours. Countless times I filled in 10 year histories, school/employment records, and the airline-specific application.

I went to two job fairs, in one case spending $132 on a hotel night for a Spirit job fair at the Hilton. I kept my hopes high and a positive attitude throughout the entire time.

As for my current employer: as I stated, I knew no one. I applied blindly, without too much hope of hearing from them. I received a link for an online assessment. In that timeframe, they changed their policy and everyone who applied automatically got the link to take their online computerized assessment. I looked at the example questions, and I decided to study stuff like that online. I spent two days, almost 10-7pm doing nothing but practice and more practice for the computerized assessment. I figured it was my only chance, my only hope, and I wanted to give it 200%. So after two days of practice, I took the real test. I felt like I had done very well on it, and that my practice paid off. Then I received an email to interview at the company. A portion of the interview was at a hotel, and the second half at the company HQs. I again paid $130 on a hotel night to keep the stress low by staying at the same hotel as the interview. I didn't buy any interview preparation, no Emerald Coast for me. I'd heard that this particular company only wants to get to know you and the real you. I didn't want to be coached, because I felt then I would be doing something someone else told me to do. I mentally thought of my own aviation and non-aviation stories for the interview, true stories that applied/happened to me. The day was very long, and the waiting in-between interview portions was tough. After a week, I found out I was one of 5 that were hired from our group of 11. That's less than a 50% chance.

I'll have to respectfully disagree with you if you think I didn't work hard to get to where I am.

As Derg wrote, "a pilot fresh from the fight of getting the job."

I did not have any connections. I studied as hard as I could, put in 200% effort, and did the best I could.

If you know my story, you would know that I fought hard to get my current job.
 
Cherokee_Cruiser said:
Incorrect. I attended a RJ program that was 9E-specific, but at the end of the program you were guaranteed nothing. Everyone had to interview, and it was the same interview that everyone else did. You could still screw it up, and end up without a job. How's that for "buying a job?" In fact, the guys with that kind of attitude never made it. Of my 9E interview group, 6 of 10 got hired. A 60% success rate in an interview isn't exactly what I'd call buying a job. I have a long list of pilots at this now-defunct flight school that came out with nothing in the end.
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Would you have gotten the INTERVIEW much less th job if you had not attended the "RJ program that was 9E specific?" No. Therefore, you bought the interview, and thus the job. I and the rest of us that busted our asses instructing and other aviation jobs to get where we we could meet the minimums just to get an interview at the same place were and are pretty damn insulted there are people willing to toss up the cash for a short cut. No matter how ya cut it, it's a short cut. But, whatever you need to tell yourself, I guess. As for the people that didn't make it, well, I remember there were a bunch of us on the board warning of this. There was already a long list of places like ATA or TAB Express that had more or less done the same thing and separated fools from their money.

First, I flew close to 1,000 hrs every year in 2008, 2009, 2010, and 2011. I could have just accepted the status-quo schedule of 75-80 hours, but I knew time was important and I had to get that to improve my resume. I was bought off in Nov/Dec to stay under limits and ended the years with about 975-998 hours.
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Improve your resume or meet the hours to upgrade? Let's remember where your thoughts were back then, and it wasn't about going to Vigin America or any other carrier. In fact, let's just look at your next sentence:

Then, when it became clear that there was no movement at 9E and it was a dead end,
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You flew your butt off to make $$$ and build on the handful of hours you were hired with in order to upgrade.

IWhile some were arguing about how a ATP written test should be valid beyond the 2-yrs if you do the ATP elsewhere, I got right to work and started studying for the ATP written because I knew a DPE in a Piper multi engine would want a fresh valid written. I studied for two months (not those ATP one day memorization courses), and I actually tried to learn the material. I obtained the ATP written again, since my original from being hired at a regional would not be valid anymore.
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Wait. Jet U guys didn't even need to have the ATP WRITTEN done?!?! There's another thing people needed that didn't buy the interview. The rest of us needed the ATP written done before we could even interview at 9E.

If you know my story, you would know that I fought hard to get my current job.
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Your current one, maybe. But you're dreaming if you don't think anything but extra $$$ and a short cut got you the job at 9E.
 
CC you also got your ATP from the infamous guy in Northern Maine. Having talked to the daily jumpseaters going up there on our flights, it doesnt take much to get it. In fact he abruptly quit giving rides earlier this year. Hmmmm
 
This is always one of the most idiotic conversations. Everyone thinks their way to get where they are was the best way, and anything less was "buying a job" or "taking a shortcut." I don't really think too highly of Cherokee_Cruiser nowadays, but it can't be said that he "bought a job." He just did something to give himself a leg up in his career. In most professions, that would be considered smart. Only on Jetcareers is it considered something unethical.
 
ATN_Pilot said:
This is always one of the most idiotic conversations. Everyone thinks their way to get where they are was the best way, and anything less was "buying a job" or "taking a shortcut." I don't really think too highly of Cherokee_Cruiser nowadays, but it can't be said that he "bought a job." He just did something to give himself a leg up in his career. In most professions, that would be considered smart. Only on Jetcareers is it considered something unethical.
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Sorry, man. I gotta disagree. "Getting yourself a leg up" in this situation amounts to "buying an interview." The guys in my class and most of the ones afterwards were in the 900-1200 hour range with actual experience. The JetU programs and their like were designed to fleece people of their money in exchange for an interview. IMO, it degrades everyone that actually WORKED to get the experience to QUALIFY for the interview. It's also why regional wages, particularly in the first year, are so low. Why raise wages when people will trip over themselves and in a lot of cases PAY in order to work at an airline. You've said yourself you wouldn't do the same thing again in regards to Gulfstream for that reason. Not exactly sure how you can say that and then defend programs like Jet U that don't even give you real world experience in exchange for the cash.
 
Gulfstream is a little different. While there was a sim ride and test for admittance, and everyone didn't make it, it was still essentially "buying a job." You laid down between $10k-33k (depending on when you did it), and you got a job as an FO, assuming you could pass a similuator and written test. That's not what JetU was. It was an RJ "transition" course, with the opportunity for an interview at the end. It was no different than the Comair Academy guaranteed Comair interview back in the day. And I certainly don't remember anyone calling that "buying a job."
 
ATN_Pilot said:
Gulfstream is a little different. While there was a sim ride and test for admittance, and everyone didn't make it, it was still essentially "buying a job." You laid down between $10k-33k (depending on when you did it), and you got a job as an FO, assuming you could pass a similuator and written test. That's not what JetU was. It was an RJ "transition" course, with the opportunity for an interview at the end. It was no different than the Comair Academy guaranteed Comair interview back in the day. And I certainly don't remember anyone calling that "buying a job."
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Comair Aviation Academy was also a flight school where you got your private, instrument and multi-commercial flying 172s and Seminoles around. I also don't remember anyone getting said interview at Comair without instructing for a while. In fact, most of MY instructors were guys that went to Comair academy and left because conditions were so bad for instructors. Jet U was go, get your ratings and interview with low time. Even ATA had you instructing for a while. Jet U was NOT like Comair or even ATP. Jet U basically said for an extra couple of grand you can jump to the head of the line ahead of guys that have actually been working towards their career goals. As one of those guys that was doing that, it really burns me that a) those programs even exist and b) when someone who went through one of those programs suddenly becomes an outspoken advocate of busting your ass to get an airline job.
 
So, umm, can we stop being childish and get back to the topic at hand? What is the pilot group at 9E saying about this TA? With the bottom half most likely looking to lose their jobs with it, what chance does it have to pass?
 
kellwolf said:
Comair Aviation Academy was also a flight school where you got your private, instrument and multi-commercial flying 172s and Seminoles around. I also don't remember anyone getting said interview at Comair without instructing for a while. In fact, most of MY instructors were guys that went to Comair academy and left because conditions were so bad for instructors. Jet U was go, get your ratings and interview with low time. Even ATA had you instructing for a while. Jet U was NOT like Comair or even ATP. Jet U basically said for an extra couple of grand you can jump to the head of the line ahead of guys that have actually been working towards their career goals. As one of those guys that was doing that, it really burns me that a) those programs even exist and b) when someone who went through one of those programs suddenly becomes an outspoken advocate of busting your ass to get an airline job.
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Actually, for a short period of time, Comair Academy had a program with a King Air (I think they called it AQP), which allowed you to jump to the head of the line after getting some King Air time. But in any case, it doesn't really matter. It's just like I said: you instructed, so you think everyone should have instructed. Sorry, but not everybody is cut out to be an instructor, nor do they need to be in order to be a good airline pilot. I see absolutely nothing wrong with taking different routes, so long as you aren't paying to sit in a required crewmember's seat.
 
ATN_Pilot said:
Actually, for a short period of time, Comair Academy had a program with a King Air (I think they called it AQP), which allowed you to jump to the head of the line after getting some King Air time. But in any case, it doesn't really matter. It's just like I said: you instructed, so you think everyone should have instructed. Sorry, but not everybody is cut out to be an instructor, nor do they need to be in order to be a good airline pilot. I see absolutely nothing wrong with taking different routes, so long as you aren't paying to sit in a required crewmember's seat.
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Not what I said at all. Instructing is just one way to build experience. Paying $$$ to jump to the front of the line is not getting experience. Banner towing, flying pipeline patrol, flying jumpers, renting a plane and flying cross country. Those are all ways of gaining experience. Getting 200-270 hours with an instructor sitting next to you + a jet transition course for $70k is not the same. Where's the valid experience a required crewmember SHOULD be bringing with them? Even though Gulfstream was buying a job, those guys came with real world experience. I'm honestly not sure which one I think is worse, a Gulfstream guy who paid to sit in the seat or a low experience guy that paid to jump ahead of more qualified guys that could bring more to the table.
 
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