91.205

IslandFlyer

Well-Known Member
Is it me, or does this seem somewhat open to interpretation?

91.205(d)(1) Instruments and equipment specified in paragraph (b) of this section, and, for night flight, instruments and equipment specified in paragraph (c) of this section.

I know that you must have all VFR required equipment for IFR. It just seems that it could be worded a little better, to make it clear that regardless if you're fliying in day/night IFR, you must have all required equipment in paragraph (b) and (c).

It would make a lot more sense to omit the "and, for night flight" portion. For instance (straight from IslandFlyer's revised FAR/AIM) instruments and equipment specified in paragraph (b) and (c) of this section.

Let's hear it.
 
The first sentence of part 91.205 (c) states:

"For VFR flight at night the following instruments and equipment are required:
1. Instruments and equipment specified in paragraph (b) of this section."

I think that's specific enough
 
The first sentence of part 91.205 (c) states:

"For VFR flight at night the following instruments and equipment are required:
1. Instruments and equipment specified in paragraph (b) of this section."

I think that's specific enough

I guess you're not understanding what I was getting at.

I know that 91.205 states that instruments under paragraph (b) are required for VFR night flight.

Keep scrolling down and look under (d). This is what I was talking about. Under (d) it says:

For IFR flight, the following instruments and equipment are required: (1) Instruments and equipment specified in paragraph (b) of this section (which is your day VFR), and , for night flight, instruments and equipment specified in paragraph (c) of this section (which is VFR night flight).

The way I read it, you only need the VFR night equipment for IFR ops if you're flying IFR at night.
 
The FAA's goal in the gray book is to make it as long as poosible, and to make everything open to interpretation. This is so you may be burned...:beer:
 
I guess you're not understanding what I was getting at.

I know that 91.205 states that instruments under paragraph (b) are required for VFR night flight.

Keep scrolling down and look under (d). This is what I was talking about. Under (d) it says:

For IFR flight, the following instruments and equipment are required: (1) Instruments and equipment specified in paragraph (b) of this section (which is your day VFR), and , for night flight, instruments and equipment specified in paragraph (c) of this section (which is VFR night flight).

The way I read it, you only need the VFR night equipment for IFR ops if you're flying IFR at night.
Huh? I think I understand the reg better than I understand what you're getting at.

If you're getting at that you think the reg says that you only need night equipment at night, that's right.

If you fly IFR during the day, you need the VFR-day equipment and the IFR equipment. You don't need the night equipment for IFR unless you're flying IFR at night. It's perfectly alright to fly IFR during the day without position lights, for example.

(Of course this is assuming that the only required equipment for your flight is the stuff in 91.205)
 
Of course all of it is over-ridden by the Equipment list in the POH, so its kind of a pointless discussion anyway.
 
Huh? I think I understand the reg better than I understand what you're getting at.

If you're getting at that you think the reg says that you only need night equipment at night, that's right.

If you fly IFR during the day, you need the VFR-day equipment and the IFR equipment. You don't need the night equipment for IFR unless you're flying IFR at night. It's perfectly alright to fly IFR during the day without position lights, for example.

(Of course this is assuming that the only required equipment for your flight is the stuff in 91.205)

That was the argument at the school today. Seasoned instructors were saying otherwise, after I busted out 91.205. I was just under the impression that I was reading it wrong.

Thanks for the clarification.

Here was the scenario.

A student was going on a x-country IFR flight today. He comes back in stating that the nav light was inop, and that he couldn't fly because it was required for IFR flight. I told him that he was able to fly since it was not a night IFR x-country. I then opened up 91.205. After reading it, I confirmed my statement. I then ask another "seasoned" instructor, and he convinces me that I was reading the reg wrong, and that all day/night VFR instruments/equipment was required for IFR flight.

Thanks again for the clarification. I thought I was losing my mind.
 
Of course all of it is over-ridden by the Equipment list in the POH, so its kind of a pointless discussion anyway.
Yes and no. There are items in the POH that might not be marked as "Required" that are by 91.205 or some other reg, especially if the POH list isn't broken down by kind of operation. For example, I don't think the rotating beacon or strobes are listed as "Required" in the 172 POH equipment list, yet they are required for night flight by 91.205(c) and must be operational for all flights by 91.209(b).
 
That was the argument at the school today. Seasoned instructors were saying otherwise, after I busted out 91.205. I was just under the impression that I was reading it wrong.

Thanks for the clarification.

Here was the scenario.

A student was going on a x-country IFR flight today. He comes back in stating that the nav light was inop, and that he couldn't fly because it was required for IFR flight. I told him that he was able to fly since it was not a night IFR x-country. I then opened up 91.205. After reading it, I confirmed my statement. I then ask another "seasoned" instructor, and he convinces me that I was reading the reg wrong, and that all day/night VFR instruments/equipment was required for IFR flight.

Thanks again for the clarification. I thought I was losing my mind.
I think I know the source of that. We try to simplify when we teach.

The common over-simplification for teaching 91.205 (aside from idiotic acronyms about burning fruit) is to say that for night flight you need all VFR-day equipment plus the night-specific stuff, and for IFR flight, all the VFR stuff plus some IFR-specific stuff. Pretty accurate as far as it goes, but like most over-simplifications, it misses something. In this case it's that, yes you need all of the VFR stuff for the type of operation (day or night) plus some IFR-specific stuff.

You did something weird in an oversimplifying world - you read the reg. :clap: :clap: :clap:

OTOH, that doesn't mean he could fly with the nav light inop. He might not be allowed to. But not because of 91.205. Analyze it under 91.213(d).
 
I think I know the source of that. We try to simplify when we teach.

The common over-simplification for teaching 91.205 (aside from idiotic acronyms about burning fruit) is to say that for night flight you need all VFR-day equipment plus the night-specific stuff, and for IFR flight, all the VFR stuff plus some IFR-specific stuff. Pretty accurate as far as it goes, but like most over-simplifications, it misses something. In this case it's that, yes you need all of the VFR stuff for the type of operation (day or night) plus some IFR-specific stuff.

You did something weird in an oversimplifying world - you read the reg. :clap: :clap: :clap:

OTOH, that doesn't mean he could fly with the nav light inop. He might not be allowed to. But not because of 91.205. Analyze it under 91.213(d).

Very good point.

Oh boy. Here we go again. 91.205.

Isn't it fun?

I did do a search, but couldn't come up with what I was looking for. I know, surprising.

Just a little FYI to all, the ASA oral study guide does say that for IFR ops you must have all day and night VFR equipment in addition to the IFR required equipment. I know, it's ASA and not a 'reg', but a lot of people use it to study.

Cheers.
 
Would it be better to talk about airplanes and treadmills or downwind demons? :pirate:

My problem with 91.205 is that it is taught as a begining and an end to determining if an item makes an airplane unairworthy and this teaching has gotten some pilots into grief with the FAA. Frankly I believe it is pointless to teach TOMATOFLAMES. As two quick examples, carb heat (for carburated engines), and the stall horn (for airplanes certified under part 23, not CAR part 3 for the latter item), are not under TOMATOFLAMES yet are required items for day/VFR flight.
 
The way I read it, you only need the VFR night equipment for IFR ops if you're flying IFR at night.

I don't know if I'm understanding the question but I will try regardless. I think you are saying that since the reg's don't say you don't need VFR day for IFR flight you don't need them. You only need VFR night equipment. However if you read the equipment for VFR night it has a sentence in there that includes all the VFR day stuff also. Check it out.

If this wasn't the question then sorry.
 
Of course all of it is over-ridden by the Equipment list in the POH, so its kind of a pointless discussion anyway.

My understanding is the two work hand in hand. Check the Equipment list, and check 91.205. Newer POH's take in account 91.205 but the old one's do not to my understanding.
 
I don't know if I'm understanding the question but I will try regardless. I think you are saying that since the reg's don't say you don't need VFR day for IFR flight you don't need them. You only need VFR night equipment. However if you read the equipment for VFR night it has a sentence in there that includes all the VFR day stuff also. Check it out.

If this wasn't the question then sorry.

No, Midlife answered the question. I know I worded it poorly.

What I was trying to get at.
IFR day=VFR day equip+IFR equip
IFR night=VFR day and night + IFR equip
 
Of course all of it is over-ridden by the Equipment list in the POH, so its kind of a pointless discussion anyway.

:yeahthat:
Especially on newer aircraft. The DA42 required essentially IFR equipment for night VFR flight.
 
One does not over ride the other. All are mentioned in 91.213, the reference for inoperative equipment. The areas listed in 91.213 are not exclusive of each other, but inclusive. AC 91-67 has a good flow chart.
 
One does not over ride the other. All are mentioned in 91.213, the reference for inoperative equipment. The areas listed in 91.213 are not exclusive of each other, but inclusive. AC 91-67 has a good flow chart.
Over ridden is probably the wrong way to state it. 91.205 is a minimum requirement for the specified operations, while 91.213 indicates that if the equipment was part of the type certification (basically whatever came installed in the airplane), it must be disabled and placarded as INOP; or removed.

I only get picky about it with situations such as an inoperative light because I have yet to see anyone Disable and Placard that inoperative light; they just say it is not needed under 91.205 and blast off.

Do they really know if that light is just a burned out bulb, or shorted wiring which might cause an electrical fire?

I am certain 999 times out of 1000 it will just be a burned bulb, but I would like my students to have the attitude of assuming the worst, and to err on the side of safety. Its not like it takes much time to pull the breaker and tape an INOP at the switch.
 
Over ridden is probably the wrong way to state it. 91.205 is a minimum requirement for the specified operations, while 91.213 indicates that if the equipment was part of the type certification (basically whatever came installed in the airplane), it must be disabled and placarded as INOP; or removed.

I only get picky about it with situations such as an inoperative light because I have yet to see anyone Disable and Placard that inoperative light; they just say it is not needed under 91.205 and blast off.

Do they really know if that light is just a burned out bulb, or shorted wiring which might cause an electrical fire?

I am certain 999 times out of 1000 it will just be a burned bulb, but I would like my students to have the attitude of assuming the worst, and to err on the side of safety. Its not like it takes much time to pull the breaker and tape an INOP at the switch.

91.213 lists ALL the areas and regulations to check- including 91.205 as well as the steps to follow if something is inoperative. Which is why a pilot should start there. Again, if CFIs would stop teaching students to go to 91.205, or even worse to memorize it, this ( failing to placard an item inoperative) would not be a problem.
 
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