777 strikes approach lights on departure 9/15

Autothrust Blue said:
My Dad is fond of saying that the only time that anyone has ever been hurt in an airplane or damaged one was because they were any combination of:
(1) tired
(2) in a hurry
(3) distracted/thrown a change.

Which sounds like a lot of "In Command" distilled down to an easily-digestible chunk.
Click to expand...

There is also laziness/complacency.
 
Seggy said:
I get that.

But with the thought processes in the other thread by @MikeD I wouldn't think he would expect those to be checklist necessary.
Click to expand...

I already answered that in my original post Seggy. The two situations are completely different.

Confirming what runway you're pulling onto........ie- checking the HSI against the numbers painted on the asphalt in front of you.......is FAR less complex than inputting a runway change into an FMS, for the reasons I stated. And is being done at a critical phase flight of time where attention needs to be outside and written checklists complete, not inside.

Hence, why I don't think confirming what runway you're taxiing onto needs to be a checklist item.

Whereas inputting a runway change into an FMS or doing whatever is necessary to get that done, can be an SOP or a checklist, depending on what workload is required to accomplish it.
 
Derg said:
Wait until you go to SLC.

Join the localizer for 17

Do you have the airport in sight, cleared visual 16L

Traffic is 2 miles ahead and you have a 50 knot closure, change runways, cleared visual 16R

Wait, we need you back on 17.

Meanwhile, you're high, you're fast and he wants you to slow.


#EarlyCaptainStories.
Click to expand...
I would (and do) send for takeoff/landing data for ALL runways being advertised. And I play ball with a few sidesteps too. On a clear day my response to that is "meh," and I wind up briefing both runways in SFO (and when I do go to SLC, I add that as a threat). (Was that you going around the other day in SLC? ;) )

Incidentally, we wound up having this in SFO the other day:
Cleared visual 28R
At the bridge change to cleared visual and cleared to land 28L
Uh traffic lined up and waiting, cleared visual and cleared to land on the right again
Uh traffic still lined up, go around, fly heading (__) and maintain (___).

Granted, the two runways are right on top of each other with practically coincident descent angles, so the sidestep maneuver is a matter of "whatever." It becomes less "whatever" when you add a high energy state too.
 
Derg said:
I think what you're missing is that it's more about uploaded takeoff performance data and being sure you have the appropriate RNAV fixes to avoid a loss of separation.

"Tacos. See, my math works." :)
Click to expand...

Agreed. Far more room for error(s) than just confirming what runway you're driving your plane onto in prep for takeoff, which is a singular item. Depending on what needs to actually be done, will drive whether SOP or checklist, or even a combo of both.
 
Derg said:
I've been at the top of the alley in DTW about to hear out to somewhere like MSP which would generally be the west complex, then ground gives us a runway change and a complex, non-standard taxi instruction to 21R including intersections, taxiing on runways, crossing a runway with a "pass behind A", "B will wait" your "sequence is behind C", "Contact ground at D" and you can just smell your copilots brain sizzle.

So now you have to both confirm you've heard the right thing, someone's head's in the FMS, sending for new performance data and re-inserting runways.

I'm "that guy" taxiing slowly or asking for somewhere to pull off and get caught up that you've complained about.
Click to expand...

"Uh, ground. Could you repeat that, slowly. My pen is smoking."
 
mshunter said:
"Uh, ground. Could you repeat that, slowly. My pen is smoking."
Click to expand...

Yeah, that ish annoys me.

It's the worst when I just pull off a runway, the flaps aren't even up yet (who am I kidding we all know they go up in the flare /s) and I get a long convoluted taxi clearance. It's one thing if I'm local to the airport or whatever and the controllers there know me by name and voice but more often than not I get that stuff landing for the first time in a new place.

"Airplane 12345, taxi to parking via a, b, d, d1, e, around the island to m, cross runway 6, and contact ground on the other side."

I'm single pilot, so when I end up going someplace "new" I've found I've just started telling tower that I'm unfamiliar with the area, it's a little more embarrassing than trying to "wing it" with the chart on my knee, but it seems to work well in terms of giving me time do fly the airplane and comply with ATC instructions.
 
ppragman said:
I'm single pilot, so when I end up going someplace "new" I've found I've just started telling tower that I'm unfamiliar with the area, it's a little more embarrassing than trying to "wing it" with the chart on my knee, but it seems to work well in terms of giving me time do fly the airplane and comply with ATC instructions.
Click to expand...

Better a bit of perceived embarrassment (probably not even noticed by ATC), than a turn onto a wrong intersection/taxiway which will ultimately require more ATC instruction/correction; or worse, something like an accidental runway incursion.

As you well know, some airports are simple enough in taxi layout that they easily fall within your single-pilot workload ability, others will be exceptionally complex and be outside it, and everything in between. Your technique works well.
 
ASpilot2be said:
Anchorage is good about that. They say the runway when checking in with a approach, and it is on the ATIS too.
Click to expand...

We were advised at ATL not to say "expect" but instead tell them what runway they are going to. We had issues with the pilots not putting in the arrival runway until to late to fly through RNAV arrival when we said expect, so we just leave it out now and just say "runway 27L"
 
Derg said:
Wait until you go to SLC. Join the localizer for 17 Do you have the airport in sight, cleared visual 16L Traffic is 2 miles ahead and you have a 50 knot closure, change runways, cleared visual 16R Wait, we need you back on 17. Meanwhile, you're high, you're fast and he wants you to slow. #EarlyCaptainStories.
Click to expand...
Sounds like part of my IOE
 
MikeD said:
I already answered that in my original post Seggy. The two situations are completely different.

Confirming what runway you're pulling onto........ie- checking the HSI against the numbers painted on the asphalt in front of you.......is FAR less complex than inputting a runway change into an FMS, for the reasons I stated. And is being done at a critical phase flight of time where attention needs to be outside and written checklists complete, not inside.

Hence, why I don't think confirming what runway you're taxiing onto needs to be a checklist item.

Whereas inputting a runway change into an FMS or doing whatever is necessary to get that done, can be an SOP or a checklist, depending on what workload is required to accomplish it.
Click to expand...
Part of confirming the runway is not just making sure you are taxing onto the correct runway, but that runway is "in the box" (FMS), and the one you briefed performance data for.
 
A80TRACON said:
We were advised at ATL not to say "expect" but instead tell them what runway they are going to. We had issues with the pilots not putting in the arrival runway until to late to fly through RNAV arrival when we said expect, so we just leave it out now and just say "runway 27L"
Click to expand...
Interesting. That makes sense. Right now Anchorage is down to two runways. They land 7L, and depart 33. Far simpler than ATL.
 
Blackhawk said:
Part of confirming the runway is not just making sure you are taxing onto the correct runway, but that runway is "in the box" (FMS), and the one you briefed performance data for.
Click to expand...

Agreed, and that's all done before the final confirmation of "yes, we're indeed lined up on the correct piece of concrete here where we're supposed to be" as you enter the active with all else completed.
 
MikeD said:
Agreed, and that's all done before the final confirmation of "yes, we're indeed lined up on the correct piece of concrete here where we're supposed to be" as you enter the active with all else completed.
Click to expand...
Actually our final confirmations just prior to taking the runway is "Runway ______ (confirm the sign), runway ______ in the box (confirm same runway in the FMS),"
 
As long as the captain clenched his fist and screamed "GULLEEEEEEEEEEEY" when he smacked the approach lights, it can be forgiven.
 
Blackhawk said:
Actually our final confirmations just prior to taking the runway is "Runway ______ (confirm the sign), runway ______ in the box (confirm same runway in the FMS),"
Click to expand...

Agreed. But all programming of the box is already complete. You're not fiddle-freaking with anything at this point, just ensuring you're in the right place and the right info matches.
 
Sometimes life without a box seems nice. :)

The first item on the Before Takeoff checklist is "Verify Runway _____ @ ____" and the final item is "Before takeoff checklist complete, L/R seat TO, __% torque, headings match assigned runway ___"
 
ASpilot2be said:
Sometimes life without a box seems nice. :)

The first item on the Before Takeoff checklist is "Verify Runway _____ @ ____" and the final item is "Before takeoff checklist complete, L/R seat TO, __% torque, headings match assigned runway ___"
Click to expand...
IDK. Doing an RNAV departure off the ground makes life easier at many airports.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top