777, 787 warning for wrong takeoff mode

Cherokee_Cruiser

Cherokee_Cruiser

Bronteroc
africapearl.com

Pilots of 777s and 787s warned over pitch-guidance mode slip before take-off | News - Africa Pearl

US safety authorities have cautioned Boeing 777 and 787 operators over a potential mode confusion during take-off which can result in the aircraft departing with the wrong pitch-control guidance. Incidents have been recorded in which the ‘altitude hold’ mode of the autopilot flight-director...
africapearl.com

Reading through this, it sounds like the Emirates 777 scenario out of Dubai.

But again, no takeoffs are automatic. Pilots takeoff manually. So assuming you liftoff successfully by pulling the yoke and aiming for the 15 deg line (MOST part 121 jets for initial pitch until about 1,000 AGL), there should literally be no problem. All that happens is the flight director captured altitude hold mode close to airport elevation, and now the pink magenta bar "tells" you to lower the nose to level off. You should NOT get any "don't sink!" warnings, unless you physically pitched the nose down after takeoff and start descending.

Is this *literally* telling pilots to please not follow the magenta magic and start pitching the nose down just moments after takeoff? :aghast:





"Why did you push the nose down nose down to level off just seconds after liftoff?"


"Well, because the pink line was telling me to!"






I want off that jet. Now.
 
Boris Badenov said:
Eh, wot? Did Alaska buy a bunch of triples while no one was looking? I think you're safe.

So is anyone who has a legitimately-obtained pilot's license and is therefore capable of reading the PFD and actuating the yoke accordingly.
Click to expand...


Um, I meant as a passenger.


Nothing wrong with the jet. The children of the magenta are the ones pitching down the nose right after takeoff because the pink line told them to.
 
Here's the FAA recommendation


Reading that, it sounds like hitting TOGA on the ground again still won't solve the problem. Have to cycle the FD off, then on.

"While altitude hold latching and TO/GA behaviors are described in the Boeing Flight Crew Operations Manual (FCOM), this specific scenario is not explicitly described. It is apparent that this specific system behavior may not be known to all pilots of these aircraft."


Ok, that's a fair point. But still doesn't explain why someone would nose the airplane down below 1,000 AGL just because they say the pink line on their PFD "telling" them to.
 
Besides the big argument being made of "just fly the damn thing like an airplane, you don't need magenta lines" which I agree with, there's also 2 other egregious issues that show lack of discipline even for children of the magenta

Never pull onto a runway without making sure your FMA is showing the modes you want to be in. And if it doesn't know how to quickly pull up some modes that at least get you going on the right path. Or you risk ending up like these guys: Case Study: US Air 1702
 
So you’re stating that you have to trust the pink line when you’re in the thick soup every time except when you “know” you shouldn’t?

The AFM of the plane I’m flying shows that the ”pink line” must be followed if displayed. However, during initial, they teach to ignore it on takeoff…..yeah, that makes perfect sense.
How about THIS; use it or disengage it! If the plane is doing this, there’s something wrong with the plane that needs to be fixed!

Agree that the pilot needs to apply good judgement in the above case, but we’re telling them to trust the instruments (and this is a Reagan “Trust but verify“ in my book) and then coming up with…we’ll, don’t trust it on take off. COME ON BOEING, FIX THE PLANE!
 
Cherokee_Cruiser said:
Nothing wrong with the jet. The children of the magenta are the ones pitching down the nose right after takeoff because the pink line told them to.
Click to expand...
lmfao just disregard the flight director youre taught to never fly against

but ITS THE YOUTH WHO ARE KILLING US

I wish you manufactured your own dumb takes for a change
 
BobDDuck said:
There are lots of places elsewhere in the world where somebody's first jet is a wide body.

I was mostly laughing at your "seasoned aviators" bit.
Click to expand...

I guess that I shouldn't think so American. Lol. But I thought that they'd be "watch officer" (2nd officer) for so many hours before actually ever being allowed to touch any controls. And then only in cruise and under observation. Like at Cathay.
 
bimmerphile said:
lmfao just disregard the flight director youre taught to never fly against

but ITS THE YOUTH WHO ARE KILLING US

I wish you manufactured your own dumb takes for a change
Click to expand...
To be fair...the E175's flight director will pitch you down to below 1000FPM climb rate, and in certain places (RNO, BZN, etc) you're required to maintain greater than 1000FPM climb rates during flap retraction. It always amazed me how someone would brief that, then blindly follow flight guidance doing the exact opposite.

This is when you have to "be a pilot" and go against AFM in order to make sure you have terrain clearance.
 
dustoff17 said:
So you’re stating that you have to trust the pink line when you’re in the thick soup every time except when you “know” you shouldn’t?

The AFM of the plane I’m flying shows that the ”pink line” must be followed if displayed. However, during initial, they teach to ignore it on takeoff…..yeah, that makes perfect sense.
How about THIS; use it or disengage it! If the plane is doing this, there’s something wrong with the plane that needs to be fixed!

Agree that the pilot needs to apply good judgement in the above case, but we’re telling them to trust the instruments (and this is a Reagan “Trust but verify“ in my book) and then coming up with…we’ll, don’t trust it on take off. COME ON BOEING, FIX THE PLANE!
Click to expand...

FD is nothing more than garbage in, garbage out. A "real" aviator would realize his FMA isn't showing THR REF, TOGA, TOGA and realize that THR REF, TOGA, ALT HOLD is wrong. So yes, in this case, absolutely ignore the FD pitch bar for altitude hold. There is nothing wrong with the FD guidance on takeoff *provided* the pilot set it up properly. Since they clearly didn't do that, stop pitching the nose towards the dirt just moments after liftoff.
 
bimmerphile said:
lmfao just disregard the flight director youre taught to never fly against

but ITS THE YOUTH WHO ARE KILLING US

I wish you manufactured your own dumb takes for a change
Click to expand...

See my post above. FD is garbage in, garbage out from whatever you got programmed in the FMC and whatever you got set up on the MCP.

For example, when high above GS and cleared for the approach, I've seen a guy dial the dirt, vertical speed down, and then forget to arm approach as they reach the spoilers and get ready then focus on their airspeed/drag situation. This was worse in the Airbus because to get full spoilers, you had to turn the AP off and now your workload increased tremendously. It is this situation where a good PM would chime up and say, do you wanna arm the approach mode?

As that situation unfolds, you can follow the FD all day long and it will take you into the dirt at 00000 ft with a vertical speed of whatever you selected.



Or how about this real world scenario that happened at my make believe virtual airline. True story going into SJC. The airplane caught a 'false' glideslope. It started to come down at over 2,000 fpm. FD working properly, they are following it, locked on LOC and GS.

But lets be honest, we are aviators. When have you EVER been locked on a LOC/GS for an ILS approach and still have the airplane screaming down at 2,000fpm+ ? They were discussing something was amiss and didn't look right, but it still took the first terrain alert from their GPWS to abandon the approach, hit TOGA and go around. Now that was even more of a dangerous case because this wasn't a mismatch of some info in the FMC or MCP. The crew had set things up correctly, it just captured a false GS.

I am NOT saying ignore your FD on a daily basis. What I am saying is be an aviator and realize what normal flight profiles look like. For example, on takeoff you're pretty much 15 degrees nose up and climbing that way until thrust reduction and acceleration altitude. Or on an ILS approach, when locked on the LOC/GS, that your descent rate still should not be 2,000+ fpm.
 
Maximilian_Jenius said:
?

I figured that a heavy typically isn't someone first jet out of the gate, normally anywhere in the world. A 737 or A320, maybe. But at least here in the states more like a CRJ/175. But WTH do I know?
Click to expand...

Aviation in the United States is vastly different than other parts of the world. There are many carriers where the first gig is right into a widebody. Emirates is a good example. As for the 3 pilots in the flight deck, it certainly made a difference for Lion Air the night prior to the MAX Lion Air accident. But the recent China Eastern crash, Air France over the Atlantic, the Turkish at AMS, PIA's ATR coming into ISB, all of them had 3 pilots in the flight deck and were not able to prevent an accident.

Seasoned aviators in some parts of the world could be seasoned video game operators. Some of them are forced to turn the AP on by a certain altitude (something you don't see much in the US carriers). It works great for them as long as the black magic FD, AP, and airplane function properly. Heaven forbid a clear beautiful day in a place like SFO where the GS is out of service, and a 777 crew would dick that approach up over automation errors.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top