737 goes down off Hawaii

JordanD said:
Every airliner I’ve flown an engine failure is just a “caution” message versus a “warning” message.

An eye opening “exercise” they did at the end of CQ one year at my regional was they would put you on a fairly close downwind and tell you ok don’t use the QRH, just evaluate and handle the situation.” They’d give you an engine failure, then on the other side an engine fire. As soon as the fire bell rang the guy reached up and pulled the fire handle. It was on fire, but it was the only engine giving us thrust close in to the airport. The best description I’ve heard was “there’s two sip emergencies, where you see the failure, take a sip of coffee… Think about it, take another sip… think, then act. Then the more urgent stuff you take one sip.”
I’ve noticed this with myself too where I’ll start reading a QRH fast and would stumble over the words a little bit. Made a more conscious effort to slow down and enunciate every word, which probably rubs off on the person next to you. Slow, calm, and methodical, and the person next to you will likely slow down, take a breath, and think before they act.
Click to expand...

"If anything bad happens wind the clock"
 
BEEF SUPREME said:
"If anything bad happens wind the clock"
Click to expand...

I think this phrase is no longer en vogue, but when I was first starting out in my mil career, "smoke a lucky" was the "cooler" form of "hack the clock". And then some years later, I met the guy who literally did smoke lucky's in his jet.

Speaking of "cool", guys often used a colloquial term during briefs when covering NORDO procedures when in formation....."pass me the Helen Keller signal so I know you're NORDO". I probably giggled at it as a student the first time I heard it, and then never thought much more about it for years. Then one day I was the IP listening to a student brief. It dawned on me that if he were actually equivalent in sensory failures, we have some pretty larger problems. I mentioned it in the debrief of the brief and he was like "oh yeah, I guess so". Guy is currently a blue angel, so I guess my random thought didn't hold him back at the least :)
 
KLB said:
Here's the accident that really prompted my attention to just returning to the airport and then treating the issue as a ground emergency in some instances.

en.m.wikipedia.org

Propair Flight 420 - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org en.m.wikipedia.org
Click to expand...

Our inter island fleet has a "quick return" philosophy on V1 engine failures. The securing checklist is pretty quick, and the goal is to fly a pretty normal pattern and come back and land. The NB airbus fleet runs the OEM checklist, where you can start in on the ECAM any time after 400 feet as long as you are stable. Normally you can have everything secured by 1000 feet, fly a somewhat extended pattern, and get back on the ground. Our WB Airbus fleet doesn't allow you to start on the ECAM until you've climbed to Acceleration Altitude, cleaned up the aircraft and then started climbing out at green dot. In a heavy aircraft scenario that can take three to to five minutes of the engine burning on the wing while you truck away from the airport. It's stupid. But it's how they did it on the 767 DC10 L1011 DC8, so it's how we do it today.
 
///AMG said:
I think this phrase is no longer en vogue, but when I was first starting out in my mil career, "smoke a lucky" was the "cooler" form of "hack the clock". And then some years later, I met the guy who literally did smoke lucky's in his jet.

Speaking of "cool", guys often used a colloquial term during briefs when covering NORDO procedures when in formation....."pass me the Helen Keller signal so I know you're NORDO". I probably giggled at it as a student the first time I heard it, and then never thought much more about it for years. Then one day I was the IP listening to a student brief. It dawned on me that if he were actually equivalent in sensory failures, we have some pretty larger problems. I mentioned it in the debrief of the brief and he was like "oh yeah, I guess so". Guy is currently a blue angel, so I guess my random thought didn't hold him back at the least :)
Click to expand...

Well watch out. I hit the line Monday. Better start hoping your captains don’t call out sick ;)


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 
BobDDuck said:
Our inter island fleet has a "quick return" philosophy on V1 engine failures. The securing checklist is pretty quick, and the goal is to fly a pretty normal pattern and come back and land. The NB airbus fleet runs the OEM checklist, where you can start in on the ECAM any time after 400 feet as long as you are stable. Normally you can have everything secured by 1000 feet, fly a somewhat extended pattern, and get back on the ground. Our WB Airbus fleet doesn't allow you to start on the ECAM until you've climbed to Acceleration Altitude, cleaned up the aircraft and then started climbing out at green dot. In a heavy aircraft scenario that can take three to to five minutes of the engine burning on the wing while you truck away from the airport. It's stupid. But it's how they did it on the 767 DC10 L1011 DC8, so it's how we do it today.
Click to expand...
Yikes. We can take care of immediate action items at 400'. If it's just a fail, then we take care of it once the airplane is clean and flying engine out speed.
 
BEEF SUPREME said:
Well watch out. I hit the line Monday. Better start hoping your captains don’t call out sick ;)


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Click to expand...

Congrats! And they probably will, being sick is probably better than what I got........though I made a little money in 3rd step (literally), and I also deemed the conditions right now to re-familiarize myself with SE
 
BobDDuck said:
Our inter island fleet has a "quick return" philosophy on V1 engine failures. The securing checklist is pretty quick, and the goal is to fly a pretty normal pattern and come back and land. The NB airbus fleet runs the OEM checklist, where you can start in on the ECAM any time after 400 feet as long as you are stable. Normally you can have everything secured by 1000 feet, fly a somewhat extended pattern, and get back on the ground. Our WB Airbus fleet doesn't allow you to start on the ECAM until you've climbed to Acceleration Altitude, cleaned up the aircraft and then started climbing out at green dot. In a heavy aircraft scenario that can take three to to five minutes of the engine burning on the wing while you truck away from the airport. It's stupid. But it's how they did it on the 767 DC10 L1011 DC8, so it's how we do it today.
Click to expand...
Airbus may have gone “ahem” at the time required to apply the ENG FIRE procedure once, and written a whole thing in Safety First about it.
 
BobDDuck said:
Our inter island fleet has a "quick return" philosophy on V1 engine failures. The securing checklist is pretty quick, and the goal is to fly a pretty normal pattern and come back and land. The NB airbus fleet runs the OEM checklist, where you can start in on the ECAM any time after 400 feet as long as you are stable. Normally you can have everything secured by 1000 feet, fly a somewhat extended pattern, and get back on the ground. Our WB Airbus fleet doesn't allow you to start on the ECAM until you've climbed to Acceleration Altitude, cleaned up the aircraft and then started climbing out at green dot. In a heavy aircraft scenario that can take three to to five minutes of the engine burning on the wing while you truck away from the airport. It's stupid. But it's how they did it on the 767 DC10 L1011 DC8, so it's how we do it today.
Click to expand...



At our shop, if we're on fire and the CA deems it necessary, the PM can start the Engine Fire QRC procedure after first flap retraction.

So most likely flaps 5 to 1. You start the immediate action items. WAIT. Hardly 5 seconds later, you have to call flaps to up and after takeoff checklist. Okay continue QRC fire items. WAIT. We're at Up speed, um, hit level change. Set Max Continuous thrust, what' s the problem? And this is the point where the normal call would be made for engine fire QRC items or engine failure QRH items.


It's like, wait a minute. At what point did he actually have the time to do anything on the Engine Fire QRC after the first retraction of flap? There is literally no time at this point with how busy he's going to be carrying out the E/O takeoff profile.

This "start the engine fire QRC procedure early" should either happen at 400 AGL like it does on the Airbus or be held off entirely until up speed and "what's the problem" part.
 
Cherokee_Cruiser said:
At our shop, if we're on fire and the CA deems it necessary, the PM can start the Engine Fire QRC procedure after first flap retraction.

So most likely flaps 5 to 1. You start the immediate action items. WAIT. Hardly 5 seconds later, you have to call flaps to up and after takeoff checklist. Okay continue QRC fire items. WAIT. We're at Up speed, um, hit level change. Set Max Continuous thrust, what' s the problem? And this is the point where the normal call would be made for engine fire QRC items or engine failure QRH items.


It's like, wait a minute. At what point did he actually have the time to do anything on the Engine Fire QRC after the first retraction of flap? There is literally no time at this point with how busy he's going to be carrying out the E/O takeoff profile.

This "start the engine fire QRC procedure early" should either happen at 400 AGL like it does on the Airbus or be held off entirely until up speed and "what's the problem" part.
Click to expand...

At some point I figure the autopilot comes on and the "I Fly, You Fix" division in workload with start. I'd think you'd want the NFP's attention focused completely on dealing with the issue while the FP focuses on...well flying the plane and communicating with ATC.

Sully didn't give the other guy much to do other than run the checklist. He didn't make him deviate from the checklist to communicate with ATC or set his heading bug. ..or hit level change.
 
JordanD said:
Every airliner I’ve flown an engine failure is just a “caution” message versus a “warning” message.

An eye opening “exercise” they did at the end of CQ one year at my regional was they would put you on a fairly close downwind and tell you ok don’t use the QRH, just evaluate and handle the situation.” They’d give you an engine failure, then on the other side an engine fire. As soon as the fire bell rang the guy reached up and pulled the fire handle. It was on fire, but it was the only engine giving us thrust close in to the airport. The best description I’ve heard was “there’s two sip emergencies, where you see the failure, take a sip of coffee… Think about it, take another sip… think, then act. Then the more urgent stuff you take one sip.”
I’ve noticed this with myself too where I’ll start reading a QRH fast and would stumble over the words a little bit. Made a more conscious effort to slow down and enunciate every word, which probably rubs off on the person next to you. Slow, calm, and methodical, and the person next to you will likely slow down, take a breath, and think before they act.
Click to expand...

Engineering we had phase items.

Phase 1. Oh •.

Phase 2. Slide your chair way back and look at everything.

Phase 3. Memory items
 
Cherokee_Cruiser said:
Oh Hi, Mr. I'm-still-a-Captain-and-all-that-worrying-for-nothing ;)
Click to expand...

Yep. Super lucky that 8 volunteers downgraded. Considering I’m 8th from the bottom.

Can I reiterate my request for you to stop talking about me: “Please stop talking about me. Thanks.”


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 
JordanD said:
Every airliner I’ve flown an engine failure is just a “caution” message versus a “warning” message.

An eye opening “exercise” they did at the end of CQ one year at my regional was they would put you on a fairly close downwind and tell you ok don’t use the QRH, just evaluate and handle the situation.” They’d give you an engine failure, then on the other side an engine fire. As soon as the fire bell rang the guy reached up and pulled the fire handle. It was on fire, but it was the only engine giving us thrust close in to the airport. The best description I’ve heard was “there’s two sip emergencies, where you see the failure, take a sip of coffee… Think about it, take another sip… think, then act. Then the more urgent stuff you take one sip.”
I’ve noticed this with myself too where I’ll start reading a QRH fast and would stumble over the words a little bit. Made a more conscious effort to slow down and enunciate every word, which probably rubs off on the person next to you. Slow, calm, and methodical, and the person next to you will likely slow down, take a breath, and think before they act.
Click to expand...

I’ve noticed annunciation of each word in the checklist and asking obvious questions when you get to the choose your own adventure part of the checklist was very helpful. Granted my FO was a new hire but I felt like taking the time to to read our loud all of the choices and then ask the other pilot an obvious choice was appropriate and helped the PF divide his attention. I was getting feedback on my choice and they were able to fly the airplane. It seemed to work because I kept it at the 3rd grade level.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 
BEEF SUPREME said:
I’ve noticed annunciation of each word in the checklist and asking obvious questions when you get to the choose your own adventure part of the checklist was very helpful. Granted my FO was a new hire but I felt like taking the time to to read our loud all of the choices and then ask the other pilot an obvious choice was appropriate and helped the PF divide his attention. I was getting feedback on my choice and they were able to fly the airplane. It seemed to work because I kept it at the 3rd grade level.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Click to expand...
A previous shop had us go through and say "ok we have 3 choices here..." and read them all off before you decided on one. I kind of liked that method.
 
BEEF SUPREME said:
Yep. Super lucky that 8 volunteers downgraded. Considering I’m 8th from the bottom.

Can I reiterate my request for you to stop talking about me: “Please stop talking about me. Thanks.”


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Click to expand...

No worries, will do. Just stop your woe is me, it’s annoying in a seniority system. Some of us had it worse in the merger.
 
KLB said:
At some point I figure the autopilot comes on and the "I Fly, You Fix" division in workload with start. I'd think you'd want the NFP's attention focused completely on dealing with the issue while the FP focuses on...well flying the plane and communicating with ATC.

Sully didn't give the other guy much to do other than run the checklist. He didn't make him deviate from the checklist to communicate with ATC or set his heading bug. ..or hit level change.
Click to expand...

Right. But our profile, once at flap up speed, is to climb out at that speed, and 4 things PF calls for.

Level change
Set MCT
AP on
What’s the problem?


My point was our shop’s procedure of starting fire checklist after first flap retraction literally cannot work. Because you have 5-8 seconds before the next retraction of flaps, rinse/repeat until flaps up, after takeoff checklist. And then at up speed, those 4 things above. And after what’s the problem, you call for engine fire QRC.

It should be at 400 AGL when all the PF is doing is maintains directional control and the PM is “free” somewhat. But once you reach accel height and start accelerating to clean up, the PM is very busy now with the clean up profile. Can’t run engine fire items IMO.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top