737 goes down off Hawaii

Murdoughnut said:
Question for the pros - does the wrong engine get rolled back as frequently in the sim as it does (seemingly) in real life? Was just wondering if this was a function of stress that can't really be replicated in the sim.
Click to expand...
I’ve never had it happen in the sim but I’ve never lost an engine at night over an ocean.
 
Boris Badenov said:
I would say that the result has invalidated this claim.

But seriously. There was no reason to rush, but there was also no reason to go fly out over the ocean for twenty minutes.
Click to expand...

This is a huge conundrum for 121 pilots. Do pilot stuff and just 180 back to the runway. Maybe lose your job/career because you didn't go through the super long checklist. Run super long lengthily checklist at night, super stressful situation with no horizon over the water and you swap the good and bad engine and wind up swimming. Lose your job and your career....
 
I wouldn’t find entering a wide downwind pattern for a landing to be any kind of a rush. It’s not like there is any intention of continuing on to the destination with this flight. The plan was already to go back to the airport of departure, and a traffic pattern after takeoff could have been accomplished in a non-rushed manner.
 
Boris Badenov said:
I would say that the result has invalidated this claim.

But seriously. There was no reason to rush, but there was also no reason to go fly out over the ocean for twenty minutes.
Click to expand...

Ideally they would’ve vectored to a long downwind or held over a FAF. Either way, they weren’t in a No Time Threat situation. Time spent evaluating their state would probably have saved the day and we wouldn’t have even heard of this incident.

The end result was due to misidentification of the failed engine and not running all checklists.

We both fly very heavy aircraft at times, and bad things happen if you rush them to a landing. Fire/smoke/fumes is the exception.
 
MikeD said:
I wouldn’t find entering a wide downwind pattern for a landing to be any kind of a rush. It’s not like there is any intention of continuing on to the destination with this flight. The plan was already to go back to the airport of departure, and a traffic pattern after takeoff could have been accomplished in a non-rushed manner.
Click to expand...

Then lots of calls about why you didn't run the engine fire or severe damage checklist or the engine failure checklist
 
BEEF SUPREME said:
This is a huge conundrum for 121 pilots. Do pilot stuff and just 180 back to the runway. Maybe lose your job/career because you didn't go through the super long checklist. Run super long lengthily checklist at night, super stressful situation with no horizon over the water and you swap the good and bad engine and wind up swimming. Lose your job and your career....
Click to expand...


Um. Pretty sure under emergency authority, you pretty much have the right to deviate from whatever to the extent to meet your emergency. As long as you landed safely, no one is gonna give you crap for


Well, his crap ass 121 chief pilot apparently gave him crap before about landing without getting checklists done, which no doubt made an impact on this Captain and his decision for the quick return.
 
BEEF SUPREME said:
This is a huge conundrum for 121 pilots. Do pilot stuff and just 180 back to the runway. Maybe lose your job/career because you didn't go through the super long checklist. Run super long lengthily checklist at night, super stressful situation with no horizon over the water and you swap the good and bad engine and wind up swimming. Lose your job and your career....
Click to expand...

They weren’t flying a clapped out 152. The only 121 accidents I can think of that needed to land immediately were SwissAir 111 and UPS 6 (and the UPS crew did their damndest to make that happen). The others I can think of were all fires of some kind.

Flying at night over an ocean should be extremely trivial for a 121 crew. I certainly hope so anyway.
 
GypsyPilot said:
Flying at night over an ocean should be extremely trivial for a 121 crew. I certainly hope so anyway.
Click to expand...
That's fair. But when you start stacking on emergencies, self inflicted or not, you cant say its the same as flying around day VFR over the great plains.
 
GypsyPilot said:
If the engine isn’t an uncontrolled fire that won’t go out, who cares?

I’ve flown as a PIC in 135 charter, 91 corporate, and 121. The more experienced I get, the more I chill out and take my time. I’ve seen some real cowboy stuff in my 91/135 days…. No thanks. I’ll take my time and make sure it’s done right.

Pilots that rush make me nervous.
Click to expand...
Every airliner I’ve flown an engine failure is just a “caution” message versus a “warning” message.

An eye opening “exercise” they did at the end of CQ one year at my regional was they would put you on a fairly close downwind and tell you ok don’t use the QRH, just evaluate and handle the situation.” They’d give you an engine failure, then on the other side an engine fire. As soon as the fire bell rang the guy reached up and pulled the fire handle. It was on fire, but it was the only engine giving us thrust close in to the airport. The best description I’ve heard was “there’s two sip emergencies, where you see the failure, take a sip of coffee… Think about it, take another sip… think, then act. Then the more urgent stuff you take one sip.”
I’ve noticed this with myself too where I’ll start reading a QRH fast and would stumble over the words a little bit. Made a more conscious effort to slow down and enunciate every word, which probably rubs off on the person next to you. Slow, calm, and methodical, and the person next to you will likely slow down, take a breath, and think before they act.
 
GypsyPilot said:
They weren’t flying a clapped out 152. The only 121 accidents I can think of that needed to land immediately were SwissAir 111 and UPS 6 (and the UPS crew did their damndest to make that happen). The others I can think of were all fires of some kind.

Flying at night over an ocean should be extremely trivial for a 121 crew. I certainly hope so anyway.
Click to expand...

Apparently it wasn’t and the captain was disciplined for not finishing checklists.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 
JordanD said:
Every airliner I’ve flown an engine failure is just a “caution” message versus a “warning” message.

An eye opening “exercise” they did at the end of CQ one year at my regional was they would put you on a fairly close downwind and tell you ok don’t use the QRH, just evaluate and handle the situation.” They’d give you an engine failure, then on the other side an engine fire. As soon as the fire bell rang the guy reached up and pulled the fire handle. It was on fire, but it was the only engine giving us thrust close in to the airport. The best description I’ve heard was “there’s two sip emergencies, where you see the failure, take a sip of coffee… Think about it, take another sip… think, then act. Then the more urgent stuff you take one sip.”
I’ve noticed this with myself too where I’ll start reading a QRH fast and would stumble over the words a little bit. Made a more conscious effort to slow down and enunciate every word, which probably rubs off on the person next to you. Slow, calm, and methodical, and the person next to you will likely slow down, take a breath, and think before they act.
Click to expand...

I've gotten a similar situation in the sim while I was the NFP. The instructor gave the FP an engine failure on a 3 mile final and the FP elected to go around to "secure the engine". I queried him on it, but he jammed the thrust levers forward and away we went. It led to an interesting post flight brief. Haha
 
NovemberEcho said:
Is it hard to identify which engine dies on airliners? I feel like the remaining engine is the one brought to idle way too often.
Click to expand...
The 777 has Thrust Asymmetry Compensation. It applies rudder to compensate for an engine failure. In flight it does 100% of the rudder needed, on the ground it only does 90%. It was initially 100% on the ground, but pilots were taking off not knowing what engine had failed. So in that instance it could be tough.
 
Hur durr if he’d just turned around and landed it would have been fine.

It also would have been fine if the two of them didn’t ninja hands the wrong engine/otherwise bungle the checklist.
 
Roger Roger said:
Hur durr if he’d just turned around and landed it would have been fine.

It also would have been fine if the two of them didn’t ninja hands the wrong engine/otherwise bungle the checklist.
Click to expand...
It’s less of an issue on the Airbus, but good lord it annoys me when guys “cobra” the master caution the second it lights up.
 
GypsyPilot said:
If the engine isn’t an uncontrolled fire that won’t go out, who cares?

I’ve flown as a PIC in 135 charter, 91 corporate, and 121. The more experienced I get, the more I chill out and take my time. I’ve seen some real cowboy stuff in my 91/135 days…. No thanks. I’ll take my time and make sure it’s done right.

Pilots that rush make me nervous.
Click to expand...

Part of my usual brief is that there are very few things that require us to rush. An uncontained fire or parts falling off are about the only thing. Even a medical emergency doesn’t require hurrying, but rather not wasting time.
 
BobDDuck said:
I think it's more a question of training scenarios. It's very rare to get an insidious failure in the sim. Normally it's a big bang and total loss of power. Or a generator that blows and can't be reset. The reality though is that often times when things break they do it in unspectacular ways. The engine slowly looses power or just starts to run rough. The number 2 AC bus keep fluctuating and load shedding and then picking things back up again and again.

We (generally) don't train how we fight.
Click to expand...

I'd be interested to see more of the "failure at a time that isn't V1" types of scenarios, to include loss of thrust. The kind of failure that puts you off "script". Or engine failure inside the FAF or something (though that is probably statistically very unlikely other than birds). That being said, I realize that precious time is consumed by regulatory requirements (that V1 cut, the S/E ILS to MA, etc).

I had a (real) engine failure a few weeks back. Got an engine caution with no other indications, brought the throttle back to idle per the memory item, and then a bunch of bangs and the FADEC shut it down. It was definitely unspectacular. It ended up being a fan overspeed caused by a faulty fuel controller, that led to a significant enough compressor stall to make the computers angry. In that sense, I didn't really have to decide which engine it was :)
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top