737 goes down off Hawaii

I've said it before and I'll say it again, Hawkers are the product of a bunch of engineers about to be laid off after they saw a LearJet on a ramp somewhere and then all attended a very early LSD party. I will also reiterate that I think that whoever dreamed up the Maxoret deserves some sort of medal, the simplest design to solve the ABS issue on an otherwise overly complicated flying brick. I wonder if that guy just sat in the corner of the break room smoking as he gave a steely eyed gaze at his co-workers and smirked. Did you know one side of the NLG axle is reverse thread and the wheels on the main gear are staggered or that most of the hydraulics require special wrenches that are almost impossible to find anymore? Those anti skid units are the only redeeming feature of that demons spawn of an airplane. But pilots like them and once sorted they do run kind of reliably. I hate them, but probably not as much as whoever is paying the MX bills, there really is no fast, cheap and easy solution when a Hawker is broken.

Edit: I will amend my assertion that the Hawker has only one redeeming feature, the quickest and easiest engine changes I've ever done were Hawker 800s with no thrust reversers. Two experienced mechanics with all of the equipment can easily knock out a double in 3 days.
 
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Pilot Fighter said:
I recall that to get 75 degree flaps, 75 degree top and bottom air brakes, you had to be at full flaps (45) when you dumped.
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That rings dim, arthritic bells. If this is the case (and I've no reason to think it isn't) it's because you always landed at full flaps, so there was no reason to have the logic (logic, haha, some wheels and pulleys with bad teeth and no chins) account for a landing with less than full flaps. In any case, AFAICT, these guys landed in the correct configuration, they just failed to pull the giant handlebar all the way back. Which is weird, because (again, IMS) you did that on EVERY landing.
 
Boris Badenov said:
That rings dim, arthritic bells. If this is the case (and I've no reason to think it isn't) it's because you always landed at full flaps, so there was no reason to have the logic (logic, haha, some wheels and pulleys with bad teeth and no chins) account for a landing with less than full flaps. In any case, AFAICT, these guys landed in the correct configuration, they just failed to pull the giant handlebar all the way back. Which is weird, because (again, IMS) you did that on EVERY landing.
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The airplane has logic, but it's all mechanical like an abacus designed by a bunch of meth heads at the end of a bender.
 
Boris Badenov said:
In any case, AFAICT, these guys landed in the correct configuration, they just failed to pull the giant handlebar all the way back.
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I’m gonna have to read the report a third time. I think they landed at Flaps 2 (25 degrees), which means they wouldn’t have gotten the bonus dump which required Flaps 3 (45 degrees).
 
Is there a contingency if a Hawker lands and the dump fails? Is any landing in a Hawker where you don't go to dump going to end up in an overrun?
 
Inverted said:
Is there a contingency if a Hawker lands and the dump fails? Is any landing in a Hawker where you don't go to dump going to end up in an overrun?
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Based on my limited experience only Hawker offers the lift dump option (flaps drop to like 90 and spoilers come out) and they seem to operate into and out of airports that lots of other aircraft utilize so I think the answer would be no? I understand spoilers putting the weight on the wheels to achieve maximum braking but why did they decide flaps are big speed brakes? It sounds like a good idea when someone is peaking on ecstasy and the OOTS OOTS are pumping but it's a Hawker. A Falcon 20 can do almost anything a Hawker can do but you don't see them around much anymore. Why is that?
 
Roger Roger said:
I first thought I read that they landed flaps 25 but on a more detailed read through it looks like they did have flaps 45?
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I believe they got spoilers but not lift dump by pulling the bar up and over. I had a couple landings where I thought it got over but it was spoilers only.

I enjoyed hand flying the airplane but it did enjoy the ground on takeoff. I couldn’t imagine a late go around would ever work.
 
Roger Roger said:
I first thought I read that they landed flaps 25 but on a more detailed read through it looks like they did have flaps 45?
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Help me out on this. I read the captain’s call for flaps two but didn’t see another reference to flaps other than flap were at zero when they attempted go around.

The CVR recorded the captain stating, “flaps two,” at 0943:05, followed by a sound similar to two clicks. He then prompted the first officer to “go through the before landings, make sure you got it all....down indicating down.” The first officer subsequently stated that they had the “before landing shorts to go.”15 At 0943:36, the CVR recorded an electronic voice stating, “one thousand.”

At 0944:25, the CVR recorded an electronic voice stating, “four hundred.” At 0944:29, the captain stated, “I’m goin’ right to the tiller and the brakes.” Three seconds later, the CVR recorded an electronic voice stating, “three hundred.” Immediately thereafter, the captain stated, “slowin’ to ref [reference landing speed or Vref],” followed by a sound similar to multiple clicks.

At 0944:47, the CVR recorded an electronic voice stating, “two minimums minimums,” which was immediately followed by the first officer stating, “air valves are shut [yaw] damper to go,” and then, “damper.” At 0945:04, the CVR recorded a sound consistent with tires rolling on a prepared surface, followed 2.5 seconds later by a sound similar to the airbrakes moving to the OPEN position.
 
Pilot Fighter said:
Help me out on this. I read the captain’s call for flaps two but didn’t see another reference to flaps other than flap were at zero when they attempted go around.

The CVR recorded the captain stating, “flaps two,” at 0943:05, followed by a sound similar to two clicks. He then prompted the first officer to “go through the before landings, make sure you got it all....down indicating down.” The first officer subsequently stated that they had the “before landing shorts to go.”15 At 0943:36, the CVR recorded an electronic voice stating, “one thousand.”

At 0944:25, the CVR recorded an electronic voice stating, “four hundred.” At 0944:29, the captain stated, “I’m goin’ right to the tiller and the brakes.” Three seconds later, the CVR recorded an electronic voice stating, “three hundred.” Immediately thereafter, the captain stated, “slowin’ to ref [reference landing speed or Vref],” followed by a sound similar to multiple clicks.

At 0944:47, the CVR recorded an electronic voice stating, “two minimums minimums,” which was immediately followed by the first officer stating, “air valves are shut [yaw] damper to go,” and then, “damper.” At 0945:04, the CVR recorded a sound consistent with tires rolling on a prepared surface, followed 2.5 seconds later by a sound similar to the airbrakes moving to the OPEN position.
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If you dig through some of the other data it sounds like they think the FO put the flaps full on the before landing check.
 
ppragman said:
I’ve known quite a few people over the years whose hobby is flying professionally. Never seen them flying a 737… but they’re not that rare.

If you really like flying, about the only way to do certain types of it is to have a job where you do it. If you’re in the upper middle class you can learn to fly in America, you may even be able to afford a light airplane… but nobody gets to fly a 737 without a job.
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John Travolta disco dances his way into the chat.
 
Roger Roger said:
If you dig through some of the other data it sounds like they think the FO put the flaps full on the before landing check.
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Yep, my ears were listening for something else.


However, the captain did use the nonstandard terminology, “down indicating down,” at 0943:14, most likely to confirm that he had set full flaps (45°) for landing.
 
Pilot Fighter said:
and military accident boards are primarily peer-based with members having little investigation training.
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I was interrogated by an AIB for an F-22 crash that they were trying to pin on ATC. 8 people slinging questions at me, 7 pilots and 1 controller, and the controller was tower only and had never worked radar. In the official report they said I hadn’t passed on vital info because it wasn’t on the recorded line. The person I supposedly didn’t pass this info to was sitting right next to me during the event.
 
NovemberEcho said:
I was interrogated by an AIB for an F-22 crash that they were trying to pin on ATC. 8 people slinging questions at me, 7 pilots and 1 controller, and the controller was tower only and had never worked radar. In the official report they said I hadn’t passed on vital info because it wasn’t on the recorded line. The person I supposedly didn’t pass this info to was sitting right next to me during the event.
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what was the general story of the accident? Crash on field, off field?
 
MikeD said:
what was the general story of the accident? Crash on field, off field?
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2-ship came back from MOA. Pilot miscommunicated which was the emergency aircraft and used the wrong callsign (they were part of 2 separate flights that’s came back together after one of the original wingman RTB’d earlier) several times leading to confusion on which was which. What we believed was the emergency aircraft was vectored for PAR while the other was on extended vectors. It wasn’t until the first aircraft was on the ground that they notified tower they weren’t the emergency. The other one in the meanwhile, right after that, lost all electronics including transponder with a 1500’ OVC ceiling. Being an F-22, no primary target so radar contact lost, he doesn’t know where he is, plane catches fire and he ejects. Went down next to the drone runway on the east end of the field. Wound up being a generator issue. Never said a word the whole time he was being vectored all over the place to indicate that it was HE who needed to be on the ground ASAP.

I wasn’t the one talking to the planes, I was working as the radar assist handling coordination.
 
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NovemberEcho said:
. Never said a word the whole time he was being vectored all over the place to indicate that it was HE who needed to be on the ground ASAP.
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This is key. A simple query from him. as to why he’s not being vectored to final should’ve been done. Sometimes there’s reason why an emergency might not be being given priority, as I’ve personally experienced….when I was given a hold while an emergency, but was the #6 emergency in progress RAPCON was handling in night, low IFR. The other 5 IFEs had bigger emergencies than I did. But a simply query ensured that both me and ATC were on the same page.
 
MikeD said:
This is key. A simple query from him. as to why he’s not being vectored to final should’ve been done. Sometimes there’s reason why an emergency might not be being given priority, as I’ve personally experienced….when I was given a hold while an emergency, but was the #6 emergency in progress RAPCON was handling in night, low IFR. The other 5 IFEs had bigger emergencies than I did. But a simply query ensured that both me and ATC were on the same page.
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Yep. He had plenty of time to question things. Like when we switched the other guy to a discreet freq and kept him on the usual approach channel. I get that he was probably quite busy figuring out what was wrong with his jet as well, but there was ample time to clarify things and should have been enough clues that there was a miscommunication somewhere about who needed the priority. But to the original point, when I left that AIB I felt like I was Clevinger in Catch-22 being accused of a crime because they hated me and they could do whatever they wanted. I completely understood where false confessions come from after that. I was almost ready to confess to anything lol
 
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