SlumTodd_Millionaire
Most Hated Member
That’s you. Others are different. Leave them be.
737 goes down off Hawaii
- Thread starter GypsyPilot
- Start date
Well, I occasionally will, it's just that I had a bunch of instructors (*cough* WALDOCK *cough*) who put things like that on replay. Largely because it illustrates what happens when people do dumb things and how easy it is to let a lot of small things add up and when it's time to set the brake/go around/refuse to fly/etc.
Now why non-aviation people do, well, the Kardashians were also the #1 show for a period of time.
But they're nasty, but I'm largely desensitized.
Boris Badenov
Fortis Leader
I'm way out of date on the Hawker, but watching it now and having vague memories swim back, what I got out of the CVR (which I would not have gotten out of reading the transcript) was the tension in their voices. They knew this was a dicey landing from the outset. Also, and weirder, the total passivity of the F/O when the C/A decided to attempt a go-around from an *insane* position. At that point it was either overrun and ding the airplane or die. The C/A chose "die", and the F/O didn't say a word. It's one thing to read that, it's another thing to hear it. "Here we go!" "NEGATIVE. *stomp on brakes*"
As to what they thought was going to happen, I suspect they thought that they would plant it right on the numbers (which they did), use max braking, and exit at the end. I believe it was probably do-able (if extremely unwise), even under the conditions, if they'd gotten the lift dump out on time, but once they didn't (then DID), they were along for the ride.
What the C/A was thinking when he decided to attempt a go-around, I have absolutely no idea. Probably something like "if we overrun, my career is over" unleavened by "if we try a go around, everyone dies".
Boris Badenov
Fortis Leader
You're just wait out of date, period. Boris.
Fair point. They probably listened to Rock-and-Roll "Music" and didn't respect their Elders. May even have driven around in a Mystery Machine when off-duty. Damned kids.
CUT DOWN THE ALTARRRRRR! *guitar riff*
HeyEng
Well-Known Member
Although not related to the CVR, I found it somewhat interesting that the FO of the 737 is also an attorney and was also doing work on the W&B program which apparently was not in compliance with the FARs. He said in his interview that he pretty much supervised the attorneys at his firm, but was still working 6 days a week. Doesn't seem like to much fun with the 3 weeks on 1 week off schedule they flew...on the back of the clock at that.
🦈💜
Well-Known Member
Thank you. That's... how it read to me, but I felt like I must have been missing something.
Ugh.
Cherokee_Cruiser
Bronteroc
Stupidity. CA forced the go around, on a fear of overrunning at 10-20 knots. Even the pax in the background are heard saying “what the hell is he doing” or “don’t know what they’re doing.”
Not flying, not MF flying? What do you expect at this stage?
Poor FO was just along for the ride.
Inverted
mmmmmm wine
I haven't stepped foot in a Hawker, but that video really painted a picture. That crew, as a crew, didn't seem like they were really flying the plane. ATC having to tell them to go around weather, the FOs responses seemed quite short and insecure. All the makings of some seat-warmer FO and a poorly skilled CA that has gotten lucky more than he has been good. Not a single discussion on the CVR about the environment, the weather, the runway condition or anything else for that matter. I mean hell, they canceled IFR in the middle of a freaking thunderstorm not even thinking about a single contingency if the landing didn't work out. There was no aviating done that day, none. Everyone died as a result.
The typical dynamic in the cockpit is that the FO is less experienced than the CA. Almost every accident can be attributed to an inactive PM who is typically the FO. When the CA is crappy, and the FO is inexperienced, there is no hope.
Boris Badenov
Fortis Leader
This is very noteworthy, although it *is* something you'd be able to discern just as well from the transcript as from the recording. They didn't even brief the missed.
FlyingAccountant
Well-Known Member
Yeah, I'm curious what possesses someone to do that. Money likely wasn't an issue. I haven't read the docket other than the CVR, but I wonder if he had an ownership stake in the company.
ppragman
FLIPY FLAPS!
I’ve known quite a few people over the years whose hobby is flying professionally. Never seen them flying a 737… but they’re not that rare.
If you really like flying, about the only way to do certain types of it is to have a job where you do it. If you’re in the upper middle class you can learn to fly in America, you may even be able to afford a light airplane… but nobody gets to fly a 737 without a job.
Pilot Fighter
Well-Known Member
Don’t make me read again. I think they were 1000ft downstream at touchdown and never had full dump.
Pilot Fighter
Well-Known Member
I have a few lawyer friends that need an interesting hobby to talk about.
Boris Badenov
Fortis Leader
They got it down (IMS) on or near the numbers. They were definitely in the TDZ. But you're quite correct that they didn't initially get in to full dump. The C/A (I'm assuming it was him) seems to have pulled the handle to "full open", but not gotten it over the detente in to "dump". The F/O pointed this out, and he did eventually go to "dump", but late, like VERY late. AFAICT, it was the worst of both worlds, you're not in dump when you're trying to stop, but you're in dump when you're trying to go. They weren't getting back in to the air attempting the go-around at that point in any case, I think.
Pilot Fighter
Well-Known Member
Did they ever go full flaps to get the “bonus dump”?
Heck, the report said they would have had a leisurely and survivable overrun with full flaps, brakes, and no boards.
Last edited:
Boris Badenov
Fortis Leader
I would assume that they landed full flaps (as best I can recall that was ops-normal in that airplane, I don't think it was like a 74 where you can be a Fancy Lad and decide to try 25 because you're Fancy). But, and I stand open to correction on this because A) It was a long time ago and B) I'm an idiot with significant memory-loss, the lift-dump feature cancels all commanded flap-positions and moves them to ~90 degrees, so they, you know, dump the lift and also act as some sort of prehistoric speed-brake. Come and see me out back, internet.
Pilot Fighter
Well-Known Member
My memory is failing me too.
I recall that to get 75 degree flaps, 75 degree top and bottom air brakes, you had to be at full flaps (45) when you dumped. I don’t recall what less than full flaps got you. I think it bought you no additional flaps and partial air brakes .
At less than full flaps, you might have needed to cycle the air brakes back to shut or open after going full flaps to get max dump.
Damn, I feel old when I can’t remember stuff. If you landed full flaps, you didn’t have to remember the odd 1960’s logic to get the bonus dump.
Last edited: