737-700 model question.....
- Thread starter Stomp16
- Start date
Bandit_Driver
Gold Member
No you not crazy and you will be a better pilot in the long run for it.
Automation has it's place and does make life easier at times. As mentioned by earlier posters handflying is often easier, safier and in some regimes of flight actually smoother than any autopilot or autothrottle can be. I've seen too many guys that rely on the automation way too much.
kellwolf
Piece of Trash
Like everyone else said, it's a proficiency issue. Wonder how well that guy would do if the AP failed on him. Likely he'd be all over the sky since he's probably forgotten how to hand fly by now. Heck, it's even a requirement in our CFM to maintain proficiency at ALL levels of automation, including raw data and no AP. If someone has a beef with my hand flying the airplane, I'll just reference that little tid bit in our manual and tell them where to go.
Now, there are times when we're required to have the AP on. The only one I can think of is RNAV departures, possibly arrivals (have to look it up to be sure. I'm on vacation and I'm not touching a book) and CAT II approaches. I'll also go AP on when I'm feeling tired or during high workload periods. Now, if we've briefed it, the FO is okay with it (and I know he can handle it), I'll sometimes handfly the whole way on trips like MEM-HSV, DTW-LAN or DTW-MBS. Like Baronman said, the PM is often busy with things like programmin approaches and dealing with ACARS stuff. Add the radios on that, and those 19-20 minute flights can get kinda busy on their end. Wish I had a link to the "Bob" video they show us in training. The CA is flying with the AP on and is dumping EVERYTHING on his poor non-fly. When the FO asks if he can help him with something, the CA says "Uhhhh.....I'm kinda busy here, Bob."
Now, there are times when we're required to have the AP on. The only one I can think of is RNAV departures, possibly arrivals (have to look it up to be sure. I'm on vacation and I'm not touching a book) and CAT II approaches. I'll also go AP on when I'm feeling tired or during high workload periods. Now, if we've briefed it, the FO is okay with it (and I know he can handle it), I'll sometimes handfly the whole way on trips like MEM-HSV, DTW-LAN or DTW-MBS. Like Baronman said, the PM is often busy with things like programmin approaches and dealing with ACARS stuff. Add the radios on that, and those 19-20 minute flights can get kinda busy on their end. Wish I had a link to the "Bob" video they show us in training. The CA is flying with the AP on and is dumping EVERYTHING on his poor non-fly. When the FO asks if he can help him with something, the CA says "Uhhhh.....I'm kinda busy here, Bob."
Polar742
All the responsibility none of the authority
This thread is starting to make me cringe.
There are two things to address: 1) Levels of automation and 2) AT usage
First things first. Levels of automation. Everyone argues that people need to be proficient. I don't disagree.
That proficiency needs to be in ALL modes of automation. If YOU can't make the airplane do what YOU want, YOU need to make the adjustment and figure it out. The airplane will do what YOU tell it. No more, no less.
Is it worse watching someone fumble with controlling the automation modes, or not exactly sure what the airplane will do in certain modes, than it is for someone unable to handfly? Maintaining proficiency in all regimes and all levels of automation means just that. During a CATII approach isn't the right time to brush up on your AP mode control skills, just like flying every approach coupled isn't a good way to maintain hand flying skills.
Don't forget, hand flying also increases fatigue onset.
I noted a couple very good posts of people using the automation to decrease workload and increase SA. This is very important, and I see many posts that seem to neglect that aspect.
Now, that lends to techniques, which segues into AT by default. As we all know a "fully integrated" set up harkens back at least to my 1960's tech 747-200 that I last flew all the way up to the latest generation E170 that I also flew. Quite a spectrum. With increases in computer technology came more capability for the automation.
I've flown 3 generations of fully-integrated aircraft. The latest, the first real digital age, and oldest.
In all three, I've had to use different techniques with the autothrottles. The only constant I've had with ATs is that I NEVER use them in OEI scenarios, AP on or not. Too many variables added to the equation.
In the E170, I left them on all the time. And by all the time, I mean it. TOGA to autodisconnect on touchdown. They worked good, I even left them on during visuals, but I'd select a vertical mode to keep them in an active speed mode (meaning they'd fly the bug speed). (Time in airframe ~3k. Just enough to figure out a couple things)
In the 747-200, they would be on to TOD, as they were worthless at that point, so they'd be off from TOD to touchdown, and manual throttles out of cruise. The analog system just couldn't make the appropriate adjustments. (Time in airframe ~200 hours. Just enough to mimic guys with 10k hours and enough to know that they didn't work well after TOD)
In the 747-400, one of the early generation jets with the computing power of about a Commodore 64, I mix the techniques. The ATs are on from TOGA to about 50'. However, the airplane can't compute a descent and a speed, so it lets you have the throttles. I don't know if the 757 and 737 types have that as well, the infamous HOLD.
Remember, the automation is part of your CRM. If you're not tell the airplane what it's supposed to do, you're hindering yourself. For those of you in automated airplanes, mode control should be as natural as handflying. They are tools in the airplane. There's a reason that the automation is required in certain environments.
Again, as a disclaimer, it shouldn't be a crutch. You should be able to handfly. You guys that fly 3-4, or more legs a day take that for granted. I did too. When you get down to 1-2 legs a month, it's a bigger deal.
Fly safe out there.
There are two things to address: 1) Levels of automation and 2) AT usage
First things first. Levels of automation. Everyone argues that people need to be proficient. I don't disagree.
That proficiency needs to be in ALL modes of automation. If YOU can't make the airplane do what YOU want, YOU need to make the adjustment and figure it out. The airplane will do what YOU tell it. No more, no less.
Is it worse watching someone fumble with controlling the automation modes, or not exactly sure what the airplane will do in certain modes, than it is for someone unable to handfly? Maintaining proficiency in all regimes and all levels of automation means just that. During a CATII approach isn't the right time to brush up on your AP mode control skills, just like flying every approach coupled isn't a good way to maintain hand flying skills.
Don't forget, hand flying also increases fatigue onset.
I noted a couple very good posts of people using the automation to decrease workload and increase SA. This is very important, and I see many posts that seem to neglect that aspect.
Now, that lends to techniques, which segues into AT by default. As we all know a "fully integrated" set up harkens back at least to my 1960's tech 747-200 that I last flew all the way up to the latest generation E170 that I also flew. Quite a spectrum. With increases in computer technology came more capability for the automation.
I've flown 3 generations of fully-integrated aircraft. The latest, the first real digital age, and oldest.
In all three, I've had to use different techniques with the autothrottles. The only constant I've had with ATs is that I NEVER use them in OEI scenarios, AP on or not. Too many variables added to the equation.
In the E170, I left them on all the time. And by all the time, I mean it. TOGA to autodisconnect on touchdown. They worked good, I even left them on during visuals, but I'd select a vertical mode to keep them in an active speed mode (meaning they'd fly the bug speed). (Time in airframe ~3k. Just enough to figure out a couple things)
In the 747-200, they would be on to TOD, as they were worthless at that point, so they'd be off from TOD to touchdown, and manual throttles out of cruise. The analog system just couldn't make the appropriate adjustments. (Time in airframe ~200 hours. Just enough to mimic guys with 10k hours and enough to know that they didn't work well after TOD)
In the 747-400, one of the early generation jets with the computing power of about a Commodore 64, I mix the techniques. The ATs are on from TOGA to about 50'. However, the airplane can't compute a descent and a speed, so it lets you have the throttles. I don't know if the 757 and 737 types have that as well, the infamous HOLD.
Remember, the automation is part of your CRM. If you're not tell the airplane what it's supposed to do, you're hindering yourself. For those of you in automated airplanes, mode control should be as natural as handflying. They are tools in the airplane. There's a reason that the automation is required in certain environments.
Again, as a disclaimer, it shouldn't be a crutch. You should be able to handfly. You guys that fly 3-4, or more legs a day take that for granted. I did too. When you get down to 1-2 legs a month, it's a bigger deal.
Fly safe out there.
