560XL down in CT

[FlyingAccountant]

I mean I guess I'll be the dumbass (as ever) who asks how the hell they got to the runway with the parking brake engaged.

It sounds like the parking brake only holds the amount of hydraulic pressure put in with toe brakes. If the parking brake was activated without pressure being applied to the brakes through the pedals, braking action wouldn’t have been significant, which is why they may not have noticed it on the taxi.

Per the ATSB report, once the brakes overheated from the PB being applied during the takeoff run, the wheels would have seized and stopped spinning and they were SOL. Which explains why the skid marks started half way down the runway and continued into the grass.

I‘m not going to second guess the pilots, but I would assume anxiety over the runway length and the significant drop off at the end of the runway contributed to their decision to continue with the takeoff. Additionally in the Australian accident, the CG shift from the braking prevented the the elevator from having enough authority to lift the aircraft off the ground despite being over rotation speed. Something similar may have happened here, although I doubt they made it to vr in this incident.

 

[Cherokee_Cruiser]

Why is the parking brake not part of the T/O config warning?

And if it’s not part of the T/Onconfignwarmingf, then why is “parking brake - off / released” not part of a checklist?

 

[tiredcfi]

Why is the parking brake not part of the T/O config warning?

And if it’s not part of the T/Onconfignwarmingf, then why is “parking brake - off / released” not part of a checklist?

Because Cessna and FAA.

I'm sure its on the checklist (assuming they actually used one). Don't confuse a professional air carrier (that follow procedures and checklists) for the 91 guys that have virtually no rules and zero oversight.

 

[pwttogfk]

Because Cessna and FAA.

I'm sure its on the checklist (assuming they actually used one). Don't confuse a professional air carrier (that follow procedures and checklists) for the 91 guys that have virtually no rules and zero oversight.

Yup. Dunno about the 560 but I’m guessing it’s like the 525 because Cessna hasn’t designed anything from scratch since the 500. In the Collins airplanes there’s not any system logic linked to the parking brake handle. In the Garmin airplanes it feeds into the NO TAKEOFF CAS message. And yeah…when I took over my current department it was a bit funny the “checklist” they were using as well as the “standardization” of the crews. It’s hard to convince underwriting that all the other guys are the problem and not you when premiums go up!

 

[Cherokee_Cruiser]

Because Cessna and FAA.

I'm sure its on the checklist (assuming they actually used one). Don't confuse a professional air carrier (that follow procedures and checklists) for the 91 guys that have virtually no rules and zero oversight.

Ok. So then yet another Corpie crew killing themselves and their passengers by not following simple checklists?

 

[tiredcfi]

Ok. So then yet another Corpie crew killing themselves and their passengers by not following simple checklists?

Yes

 

[Inverted]

Why is the parking brake not part of the T/O config warning?

And if it’s not part of the T/Onconfignwarmingf, then why is “parking brake - off / released” not part of a checklist?

Maybe they got a line up and wait, or maybe they lined up and waited for some reason.

I mean you know how it is in the airline world, we set the brakes all the time on the runway. I can't ever imagine leaving it on accidentally but who the hell knows what was going on this cockpit. This will probably play out similar to the Gulfstream crash in Bedford. The long pattern of non standard operations by that crew eventually proved fatal. I am typed in the XL but don't remember how robust the CVR and what data they can pull from this historically, but if they can I think we will find a pattern of behavior that led to this.

 

[Cherokee_Cruiser]

Maybe they got a line up and wait, or maybe they lined up and waited for some reason.

I mean you know how it is in the airline world, we set the brakes all the time on the runway. I can't ever imagine leaving it on accidentally but who the hell knows what was going on this cockpit. This will probably play out similar to the Gulfstream crash in Bedford. The long pattern of non standard operations by that crew eventually proved fatal. I am typed in the XL but don't remember how robust the CVR and what data they can pull from this historically, but if they can I think we will find a pattern of behavior that led to this.

Except in our case, the TO Config horn will sound if power applied with brakes set.

And if we didn’t have that, I don’t think I’d ever set the brake on a line up and wait. The checklist item to catch that was already complete. Now it’s just a fatal error waiting to happen.

 

[Inverted]

Except in our case, the TO Config horn will sound if power applied with brakes set.

And if we didn’t have that, I don’t think I’d ever set the brake on a line up and wait. The checklist item to catch that was already complete. Now it’s just a fatal error waiting to happen.

Checklists wouldn't catch the parking brake at all really. So even holding in the penalty box wouldn't cause a trigger and checklist that would catch the parking brake. In fact none of our checklists queue a confirmation that the brakes are off, only set. Honestly, thinking about how we use the parking brake, it works very well and have never had an issue with it being accidentally set. It is very obvious when it is set or not.

It does make you wonder how they set the brakes and forgot it...

 

[Murdoughnut]

Out of curiosity, why do you guys set it on line up and wait? Is it just the annoyance of having to stand on them?

 

[Inverted]

Out of curiosity, why do you guys set it on line up and wait? Is it just the annoyance of having to stand on them?

Sometimes I do, sometimes I don't. In SFO, they can have a lineup of 28 arrivals where you sit on the 1s for 2 min or more. Why not set the brake...

 

[Fixtur]

Untowered field. They probably set the brake for some landing traffic. I don't know how the XL works, but on the CJs the brakes need to be set from the captain's pedals only, or the shuttle valve that controls brake pressure between the left and right can get stuck on the wrong side and you can't unset them.

Perhaps this is what happened? They thought the brakes were off (and the mostly were), but not quite all the way...

 

[Minuteman]

So did the NTSB withdraw the report or something?

I can find no evidence of docket ERA21FA346 on their site, but other places have what appears to be the full text available.

 

[Cherokee_Cruiser]

Checklists wouldn't catch the parking brake at all really. So even holding in the penalty box wouldn't cause a trigger and checklist that would catch the parking brake. In fact none of our checklists queue a confirmation that the brakes are off, only set. Honestly, thinking about how we use the parking brake, it works very well and have never had an issue with it being accidentally set. It is very obvious when it is set or not.

It does make you wonder how they set the brakes and forgot it...

True. But a part of me believes it’s like that because PB on will set off the TO config horn. If a plane doesn’t have that, then it ought to be on the before takeoff checklist.

 

[Cherokee_Cruiser]

You also ought to know what your plane feels like rolling down the runway. For the most part, by the time I just pass the the 1000 foot markers, both the Bus and 737 you’re doing about 70-80 kts.

And the general rule of thumb for just about any airplane: If you aren’t 2/3 of your rotation speed by half way down the runway, you should abort.


A huge near-accident that comes to mind is the Emirates A340 at Melbourne. What were they thinking? An aircraft accelerating that slow on a runway that long is just wrong. No amount of normal takeoff derate/flex should have caused something as slow as what they experienced.

 

[fholbert]

Sounds like the parking brake was activated.

That does explain the skid marks going off the departure end of the runway.

 

[roundout]

Out of curiosity, why do you guys set it on line up and wait? Is it just the annoyance of having to stand on them?

It's annoying, uncomfortable, and distracting to sit there holding the brakes for a long time. If you're having to devote brain power to holding the brakes, your total situational awareness decreases.

 

[tlove482]

It's annoying, uncomfortable, and distracting to sit there holding the brakes for a long time. If you're having to devote brain power to holding the brakes, your total situational awareness decreases.

Not to mention you might end up creeping forward if your foot pressure decreases while you do other things

 

[Fixtur]

I set them even in the Seneca if I'm going to be sitting still for any length of time. Too easy to be heads down and start scooting forward and not notice (esp. single pilot). I'm not going to bend metal or have an incursion because I didn't want to pull a lever.

 

[CFI A&P]

Setting the brake is a good idea when heads down. Rumor has it that this King Air inched forward while the crew was multi-tasking until it hit the Lectro.