450 TT 155 Multi - Just found a P/T SIC Citation Jet gig

[Jon Gandy]

Back in late January I started my first pilot job as an areal survey pilot with just 338 TT and 45 Multi. And I showed how I got that job in this gouge: http://forums.jetcareers.com/threads/338-tt-45-multi-just-got-my-first-flying-gig.163002/

110 Mutli hours later I'm still applying the same skills that go me that job and now need some advice for my first Turbine job. Specifically what day rate I should be asking for. For the benefit of other low timers let me first explain how I got the consideration for this position.

Like I said, I never stopped applying the skills and work I described in my first thread. While working as a mapping pilot with this company I end up sitting in the office far more than I work thanks to weather. Peculiar in this industry as I don't know of any other operations that have planes back home every day. So with all this time on my hands my Chief Pilot agreed that its a better use of my time to find some other flying for times we cant go or were all caught up on jobs.

At the FBO on field I came across this great little free mag called Charter Hub (www.charterhub.com) and started looking up operations with King Air C90s or Navajo Cheyennes. Not just so that I can get turbine experience but so that I can get familiar with the pace at which things happen in faster aircraft and grow comfortable with some more professional methods of operation.

Since I've been looking for a way to move to Texas I actually called a few operators their. It was very easy to say that my wife and I were interested in moving to the area and that I wanted to get an idea of how the part 91 corporate and 135 on demand scene was like there and if they thought it was likely I would be able to find work around the time I was interested in moving. That opened the chief pilots up A LOT. I got to learn a bit of terminology and what things operators would look for, how they dealt with low time guys...and how to deal with them as a low time pilot. I think it was the fact that I wasn't trying to sell them on giving me work that made it easier for them to talk.

So I started calling local operations and received the typical response most low timers are used to. So I made some adjustments. I started letting the Chief Pilots know I was local and I love my job and I'm not looking to leave it. But that I have A LOT of down time and that my boss understands that I just cant sit still and is ok with me doing some flying with other operations. That I was curious if they had any part 91 operations that they may be able to use a part time contract guy for.

Two operators with King Airs said that he did use P/T SICs and were always willing to take a resume in case they had a need. Well I decided to ask one if they would mind me stopping by and checking out the operation. Much to my delight they both said yes, but I've only been able to visit one so far.

Currently they have a C90, Citation II, CJ, CJ1+, CJ2 and BeechJet 400A. The company is growing quite well and have been hiring for the last 4 months. The Citation II owner is discussing buying another aircraft and one of the CJ owners is looking to upgrade into something a little bigger and faster. They are building two more corporate hangers and larger parking areas. He told me there was one lady who was finishing training that week and that he needed a SIC for the C90 next month but had a candidate lined up for it already and that I would be next in the pipeline to get calls. Which he anticipates will be another month after he trains up the guy ahead of me.

Now it was my assumption that I would be working in the C90, but it is almost exclusively a 135 aircraft. The CJs do far more part 91 flying so that is what he is going to start working with me on. HUGE and AWESOME surprise to me!

So low time guys, keep pounding the phones and emailing those resumes! Never stop talking to people and about their experiences. How they got started and whats going on with their companies. Take notes and be ready to use what you learn.

Experienced guys, what should I be "looking for" from this position? First of all I think its a great opportunity and I am going to prepare for it very aggressively, however I think the offer is quite low and want to be able to revisit that before starting with him.

I AM very low time however I will more than likely meet the 135 VFR mins of 500 hours before I fly with him and be about 200 Multi as well. It is a Part 91 SIC with occasional monthly work. By occasional I mean that he could call me for 1 overnight-weekend trip one month and 6 trips the next.

 

[chrisreedrules]

Well thats good for you bud!

 

[undflyboy06]

How much are they offering you for the day rate?

A C90, CE-500, or CE-525 usually go for around 400-500 for a day rate, but that rate is for Captain qualified and trained flight crew. Try and get as much as you're able to negotiate, but do not be disappointed if they offer 250-350 since the position is SIC in a single pilot certified aircraft and your low time. I wish you the best. Just do your best, learn and maybe this might lead to something better down the road.

Congrats.

 

[Lucky8888]

First of all, good for you! To be honest, I would be shocked if they could get you insured with less than 1,000 hours (with turbine time) on a CJ. Nevertheless, good luck.

 

[Jon Gandy]

I am being offered $175/day for this gig.

To be honest in the email before he quoted that rate I told him that I am aware of C90 SICs that are getting 250-300/day and asked what his pay for day rate was.

I would be over the moon if I were told I would get that. As it stands though I would be willing to compromise at $200/day.

Perhaps the insurance is an issue. If I were in his shoes and legally couldn't use me as a SIC I wouldn't want to pay me as an SIC. But the work is still being done, I'm still in that seat. Although at this point probably being watched more than being relied on.

I had considered letting him know how I felt about the rate but starting with him with the understanding that if I am seen as an asset that the rate gets adjusted within a certain time frame.

Thoughts? And thanks for the kind words.

 

[undflyboy06]

Negotiating is a very touchy subject. You do not want to be constantly trying to re-negotiate your cost if you sense from the persons body language or language in the e-mail that they are fairly set on that price.

Maybe this price is due to the fact that you are committed at another company as your primary job and this job is secondary of course.

If you have already gotten a response from him that your day rate is $175, I would try and re-negotiate once. If it looks like an operation where you would eventually want to leave your current job for this other company, maybe try and add a little extra like you mentioned; you want to contribute and be an asset. Then try a new day rate 200-250 and see what he says. Maybe you can convince him, but if he says 175 again, then I think you are set at that price.

Only continuing to re-negotiate to try and increase the day rate might push him a little to far and he might find somebody else for the job.

 

[BHouston@ok3air]

You know about the other requirements that go with 135vfr min 500tt? Some people don't realize, and it seems most commonly lack the 25hrs night xc.

 

[Jon Gandy]

I'm at about 32 night x-c. I did forget about it though.

 

[JDP]

As much as I hate to say this your not in a position really to negotiate. It sounds like he is doing you a favor by using you. It seems as if there are already plenty of applicants/candidates working for $175. Sadly enough it seems as if they have set the rate.

 

[rframe]

Decide what your time is worth and dont work for less than that. That said, you're not bringing much to the table in this situation, so if you ask for much they may reasonably decline to work with you.

 

[OCArmory]

I would see how it is. If you are only flying 4 hours a day it's not bad. If it is 14 hours of loading and unloading I might tak ethe experience and try something else. Congrats. I am very similar time wise to you minus the multi and have been sitting right seat in a citation 501 once or twice a month. The day rate is 500 plus expenses. But the days can be long

 

[staledog]

Agree with the responses so far. $175 is very low, but with your total time you have to weigh out what your time is worth vs. what you will get out of this deal. Mainly you will be getting experience to advance your career instead of a proper day rate. Something like this should pay at LEAST $400/day, but I understand your situation. Heck when I was a 700 hour CFI I was flying right seat in a king air for free because I didn't know any better and I was thirsty for flight hours, especially turbine. And like someone else posted, it depends if it's a cake job or if you are busting your butt for 12 hours straight. As much as I want to tell you not to do it for less than $400/day, you gotta do what you gotta do to get somewhere in this world. With your low time, you are really lucky that this opportunity exists at all. I say jump on it.

 

[Aggiepilot]

Just throwing my 2 cents in... I have 550TT and 170 AMEL. I fly right seat King Air 200 (for insurance purposes) on flights about 2 or 3 times a month and get $200/day. But in your case, if I got my flights per month and more flight time then I'd take a little lower pay to build that experience. Its amazing how much you know vs how much you think you know when you actually start flying in the soup with pax on board.

 

[DPApilot]

$200 a day seems a bit on the low end.

 

[swisspilot]

First of all, good for you! To be honest, I would be shocked if they could get you insured with less than 1,000 hours (with turbine time) on a CJ. Nevertheless, good luck.

Why not?

There was a flight instructor at my flight school hired into the right seat of a 560XL with 600 hours, and guy that was in flight training with me is a capt now on a CJ1 with 1200 hours, got hired with around 400.

Seems possible to me.

 

[TFaudree_ERAU]

I had 1000 hours and zero jet time when I got hired as a Lear 55 SIC. I got a Hawker PIC type with 1500 even. Probably had 2500 when I got my Challenger type.

If insurance won't let you act as SIC in a CJ with 450-500 TT, their agent sucks.

 

[g550driver]

Congrats, good for you to get a job with such low time, hate to say it but take what you can get.
On a side note I would not fly with you, I am sure you are a good pilot but lack a serious amount of experience to be safe.

 

[Jimmy_Norton]

On a side note I would not fly with you, I am sure you are a good pilot but lack a serious amount of experience to be safe.

For a right seat job in a single pilot airplane? I disagree completely.

 

[g550driver]

For a right seat job in a single pilot airplane? I disagree completely.

Then we will agree to disagree. A single pilot airplane with an very under experienced right seater vs. no one is much more distracting to the typed pilot. Again we can disagree, but you will not change my mind, I did it quite a few times on the CJ1 and CJ2 I used to fly, turned out I would rather fly alone then take a low timer with me.

 

[Jimmy_Norton]

Then we will agree to disagree. A single pilot airplane with an very under experienced right seater vs. no one is much more distracting to the typed pilot. Again we can disagree, but you will not change my mind, I did it quite a few times on the CJ1 and CJ2 I used to fly, turned out I would rather fly alone then take a low timer with me.

Sounds like you have some CRM issues.