3407 Strikes a Cord Redux/Whatever you guys are arguing abou

[ctab5060X]

Re: 3407 Strikes a Cord Redux/Whatever you guys are arguing

Nah, just that you're willing to risk your name on the candidate. Even before the merger, at one point, we had over 10,000 pilots and even with that amount, it's a very small world and hiring one stinker can really cause a lot of waves.

One rotten recommendation and you can pretty much count yourself out of visiting the HR office again.

Whenever I wrote a recommendation, I absolutely meant it. Especially the part about how we needed this candidate on our seniority list rather than on the seniority list at our competitor, in a highly competitive market.

I couldn't tell you a single person that, at least at my carrier and even at Skyway (rest in peace) that would recommend someone they wouldn't be able to fly an entire month straight with.

I can pretty much guarantee you that without an internal recc from a pilot with good standing, if we were hiring, you wouldn't hear a peep from HR, besides the standard "we recieved your application". Even it's an internal, it needs to come from a firstname.lastname@southernjets.com email address.

There can be 8,000 to 20,000 applications on file for just a few hundred pilot positions when the majors are hiring and trust me, they're not going to dig through 20,000 applications for a fine tooth comb looking for Captain Fabulous.

:yeahthat:

:clap::clap::clap::clap:

Excellent wording, Doug!

 

[Killtron2000]

Re: 3407 Strikes a Cord Redux/Whatever you guys are arguing

Nah, just that you're willing to risk your name on the candidate. Even before the merger, at one point, we had over 10,000 pilots and even with that amount, it's a very small world and hiring one stinker can really cause a lot of waves.

One rotten recommendation and you can pretty much count yourself out of visiting the HR office again.

Whenever I wrote a recommendation, I absolutely meant it. Especially the part about how we needed this candidate on our seniority list rather than on the seniority list at our competitor, in a highly competitive market.

I couldn't tell you a single person that, at least at my carrier and even at Skyway (rest in peace) that would recommend someone they wouldn't be able to fly an entire month straight with.

I can pretty much guarantee you that without an internal recc from a pilot with good standing, if we were hiring, you wouldn't hear a peep from HR, besides the standard "we recieved your application". Even it's an internal, it needs to come from a firstname.lastname@southernjets.com email address.

There can be 8,000 to 20,000 applications on file for just a few hundred pilot positions when the majors are hiring and trust me, they're not going to dig through 20,000 applications with a fine tooth comb looking for Captain Fabulous. No one's got time for that when everyone knows at least a pilot or two that can fly the hell out of an airplane, pleasant to work with, stays crunchy in milk, smooth under pressure and won't embarass us by walking into the HR with a orange suit, gold "teefs" and unprepared.

That's probably not consistent with how you think it works, but that's the way it works.

If there are any Southernjetters that are reading this that didn't have an internal, speak up.

It would be very awkward for me to tell one of my friends I can't give them a recommendation because I'm basically saying I don't think they are much of a pilot. I've also seen the situation where a pilot actually has a parent who is a pilot at an airline they may someday apply to. I was once offered a recommendation from a regional pilot after I took him and his wife on a 20 minute sight seeing flight.

 

[Gonzo]

Re: 3407 Strikes a Cord Redux/Whatever you guys are arguing

It doesn't have to be identical to something they are familiar with but if they are coming from a GA background then I think it would be more appropriate to use something like a frasca. The reason is because a pilot coming from a 172 into the cockpit of something like a crj is going to be like a deep sea tube worm trying to make a phone call. I don't really think that evaluation would be representive of their current skill or potential.

What about the guys that are not coming from a 172? In my interview group of 30 people only 10-12 came from a GA plane.

I think if I took the time I could come up with dozens of technical questions that aren't part of any published test bank. I think it's a poor argument to make that technical knowledge of systems, weather, FARs, IFR procedures or whatever topic is not necessary for a pilot. The argument I've heard made is it doesn't matter if you understand anything as long as you have CRM skills as if technical knowledge and CRM are mutually exclusive.

Come up with five then?

I wouldn't hire somebody because they have a buddy who works for the company. All the internal rec. tells me is you have a buddy who works here and has probably given you the inside scoop on what it is like and you are ok with that but it doesn't give me any assurance you are competent in any other way.

So, you wouldn't want a former instructor or student to personally vouch for your abilities? Much rather "make it on your own"?

Not to get dragged into yet another emergency debate on the internet, but at the last two airlines I've worked for, an internal recommendation is absolutely critical.

I would take a letter of recommendation from them because it would help me get me hired but all it tells the interviewer is I have friends who work for the company.

So the message is you may be a great pilot but we don't want you unless you happen to have a buddy who works here too.

I don't think you understand why a internal recommendations is important to the company.

 

[derg]

Re: 3407 Strikes a Cord Redux/Whatever you guys are arguing

I don't think you understand why a internal recommendations is important to the company.

Yeah I do.... chump!

 

[Gonzo]

Re: 3407 Strikes a Cord Redux/Whatever you guys are arguing

It would be very awkward for me to tell one of my friends I can't give them a recommendation because I'm basically saying I don't think they are much of a pilot. I've also seen the situation where a pilot actually has a parent who is a pilot at an airline they may someday apply to. I was once offered a recommendation from a regional pilot after I took him and his wife on a 20 minute sight seeing flight.

Do you remember the ex LA bus driver at the Aviator(I am bad with names). His brother is at FedEx but will not give him a recommendation.

 

[Killtron2000]

Re: 3407 Strikes a Cord Redux/Whatever you guys are arguing

What about the guys that are not coming from a 172? In my interview group of 30 people only 10-12 came from a GA plane.



Come up with five then?



I don't think you understand why a internal recommendations is important to the company.

You bring up a good point about guys coming from turbine equipment already to be honest I really don't know. I guess what sort of sim and situation they could come up with for them would depend on the companies resources.



If I were to ask a systems question for example I might start with something like. "What's the source of power for the electrical system?" Then move onto "Can you explain how the alternator works?" and then something like "How does a rectifier turn AC into DC?" You could even go further then that but a progression from obvious to obscure is what I would go for.

I would try to leave the questions somewhat open ended so I could see how much detail they can give me. Some people would argue that systems knowledge is not important for pilots and maybe they're right but I would argue that if a "wet commercial" pilot can tell me exactly how a rectifier works off the top of his head his attention to detail is probably good.

Just to pre-emp a couple things I am not saying it would all hinge on this one series of questions about the alternator IT IS JUST AN EXAMPLE of something I came up with on the spur of the moment.

Also it wouldn't have to be all about aircraft systems there are plenty of topics you can go in depth into.

You can also ask as many scenario question or HR questions as you want.

The thing I noticed about most airline gouges is they ask a lot of basic questions and they don't seem to really probe how much detail you really know about a topic.



You're right I don't see why they put so much emphasis on an internal rec.

 

[Killtron2000]

Re: 3407 Strikes a Cord Redux/Whatever you guys are arguing

Do you remember the ex LA bus driver at the Aviator(I am bad with names). His brother is at FedEx but will not give him a recommendation.

Maybe I met him I don't remember a bus driver or a guy with a brother at fedex.

I would think the guy would have a lot of pressure to give the recommendation and I know a lot of people who do anything for family.

 

[surreal1221]

Re: 3407 Strikes a Cord Redux/Whatever you guys are arguing

Seems like someone failed networking 101.

So be it.

 

[Killtron2000]

Re: 3407 Strikes a Cord Redux/Whatever you guys are arguing

Seems like someone failed networking 101.

So be it.

I have 9 airlines I can get recommendations for and a couple of those I can get multiple ones. I said it's a bad system not that I don't know anyone at an airline. You guys read WAY too much into what I write.

 

[Gonzo]

Re: 3407 Strikes a Cord Redux/Whatever you guys are arguing

You bring up a good point about guys coming from turbine equipment already to be honest I really don't know. I guess what sort of sim and situation they could come up with for them would depend on the companies resources.

Interviews cost a lot of money. Most companies only hire 5%-15% of people they interview now you want the companies to spend more money coming up with 4 or 5 different sim evals.

I think you miss the point of the sim eval. They are looking for two things are you trainable and CRM.

If I were to ask a systems question for example I might start with something like. "What's the source of power for the electrical system?" Then move onto "Can you explain how the alternator works?" and then something like "How does a rectifier turn AC into DC?" You could even go further then that but a progression from obvious to obscure is what I would go for.

I would try to leave the questions somewhat open ended so I could see how much detail they can give me. Some people would argue that systems knowledge is not important for pilots and maybe they're right but I would argue that if a "wet commercial" pilot can tell me exactly how a rectifier works off the top of his head his attention to detail is probably good.

Just to pre-emp a couple things I am not saying it would all hinge on this one series of questions about the alternator IT IS JUST AN EXAMPLE of something I came up with on the spur of the moment.

I think your lack of 121/135 experience is showing. Nice questions for a PPL or CSEL checkride, but no place in a 121/135 world.

You're right I don't see why they put so much emphasis on an internal rec.

Like I said interviewing and training cost a lot of money. If the company likes pilot A they more then likely going to like pilot B who has the same back round and is a friend of pilot A. In the companies eye it is less of a risk.

 

[ctab5060X]

Re: 3407 Strikes a Cord Redux/Whatever you guys are arguing

It would be very awkward for me to tell one of my friends I can't give them a recommendation because I'm basically saying I don't think they are much of a pilot.

Sometimes the truth hurts.

You bring up a good point about guys coming from turbine equipment already to be honest I really don't know. I guess what sort of sim and situation they could come up with for them would depend on the companies resources.

Why not give them the same exact sim and situation as everyone else. That way there is a level playing field when it comes time to review the candidates and select people you want to hire. Otherwise, how are you going to decide between two similar individuals with different backgrounds when you can only hire one of them?

If I were to ask a systems question for example I might start with something like. "What's the source of power for the electrical system?" Then move onto "Can you explain how the alternator works?" and then something like "How does a rectifier turn AC into DC?" You could even go further then that but a progression from obvious to obscure is what I would go for.

I was asked this question before:

Explain, in detail, how the electrical system works ons the most recent multi engine airplane you flew.

No need to start getting obscure. Pilots are there for an interview, not a checkride with the FAA.

I would try to leave the questions somewhat open ended so I could see how much detail they can give me. Some people would argue that systems knowledge is not important for pilots and maybe they're right but I would argue that if a "wet commercial" pilot can tell me exactly how a rectifier works off the top of his head his attention to detail is probably good.

Or they can search the internet for a gouge and memorize the answer.

 

[TUCKnTRUCK]

Re: 3407 Strikes a Cord Redux/Whatever you guys are arguing

At colgan, it we normally phone screened 2-300 applicants. Of those, typically 30-40 would be interviewed.

Of those Interviewed 3-4 would be hired. Imagine doing that 3 times a month.

Internal Rec's are very important, and I take them very seriously. You also have to be carefull with who is giving you a rec'

In my position, after doing so many interviews, my rec's are considered with a significant amount of weight, so I REALLY need to make sure I am positive i think the applicant will be a good fit.

Basic questions are the way we have to go. Sadly, we have to cater to what the applicants are most likely to know. Would it be fair if I asked why in a 121 profile, V1 is from 0 to 35 feet? Or what is the assumed second segment climb bank angle limit? How does a TRU work? Can you parallel AC Generators? What does 3 phase ac mean? When does the stick shaker activate in the Q400? How about the Q400 has not been certified to full pusher activation... why?

Why does Va not guarantee structural integrity, esp at high density altitudes? Who is the Director of Operations at Colgan?

Those are all questions I could ask... but guess what, a regular GA pilot wouldn't stand a chance.

Colgan operates nearly 180,000+ flights a year, we have 450 pilots that fly close to 600-700 hours a year each. We are a SMALL regional... but in all honesty with that level of operations we actually have practically the same safety rate as the national average. Sure, a few bad apples slip through, but the screening process works. We have a failure rate that is less than 2% of all applicants.

Kiltron, your ideas would work for a flight school, or fbo... but take the numbers above, and realize that those are for a SMALL carrier. Imagine a carrier with 10,000+ pilots? Internal Rec's are also an excellent way to make sure you end up flying with people you like to fly with

 

[ppragman]

Re: 3407 Strikes a Cord Redux/Whatever you guys are arguing

If I were to ask a systems question for example I might start with something like. "What's the source of power for the electrical system?" Then move onto "Can you explain how the alternator works?" and then something like "How does a rectifier turn AC into DC?" You could even go further then that but a progression from obvious to obscure is what I would go for.

I don't think those are particularly pertinent questions for an interview. That tells the interviewer nothing of the applicants most important attribute (imo) for the cockpit: judgment. Something more like, "have you ever broken an FAR?" or "Describe to me an emergency situation you've been involved in, or barring involvement in an emergency, a situation that put you out of your comfort zone. How did you react?"

Asking questions about "how a rectifier turns AC into DC" (a question which I don't know the answer to, though I am gainfully employed at a 135 carrier) doesn't tell you anything at all about the quality of your applicant. 99% of aviation decision making is past experience, the other 1% is technical knowledge. Really, a pilot doesn't even need to know how an alternator works or how a hall-effect device takes a generator offline, the "how" of the matter means absolutely nothing to us. Hell, even the ubiquitous "how does an altimeter work? wellllll, see there are these aneroid wafers..." doesn't mean a damn thing after the instrument checkride, because knowing how something works may not allow us to do anything about it.

For us it is strictly application. So what if I can identify airplanes from the ply of the tires and can mentally calculate the formula for hydroplaning? Those things can be taught, and the pilot can learn the more obscure details on his or her own if they see fit, what really matters to the interviewer is how you're going to react when your ass, and their shiny (or rusty for you freight dawgs) airplane is in a sling. They'd also like to know if they can bear working with you on a daily basis. Pass those two points, and the rest can be trained. An internal rec pretty much covers one of those points because "hey, we know he's friends with at least one of the guys around here." The other point can be figured out by looking through the logbook, and a quick interview.

 

[jynxyjoe]

Re: 3407 Strikes a Cord Redux/Whatever you guys are arguing

You guys read too much of what I write.

Fixed it.

 

[tonyw]

Re: 3407 Strikes a Cord Redux/Whatever you guys are arguing

If I were to ask a systems question for example I might start with something like. "What's the source of power for the electrical system?" Then move onto "Can you explain how the alternator works?" and then something like "How does a rectifier turn AC into DC?" You could even go further then that but a progression from obvious to obscure is what I would go for.

You know what I'd do at that interview?

I'd say, are you hiring me to fly a plane or fix one?

And I'd think the people doing the interviewing had their heads so far up their ass they couldn't see sunlight at high noon in the Mojave.

How the hell is an interviewee at say, Colgan, supposed to know about the electrical systems of a Q400 when the closest they've come to flying it is looking at the thing on their walk in for the interview?

 

[Firebird2XC]

Re: 3407 Strikes a Cord Redux/Whatever you guys are arguing

Interesting questions concerning technical aspects of airplane components.. BUT...

In my last recurrent ground, I found myself sitting in the front row.

The check airman giving ground school started quizzing us on system concepts.

The first: "How many chemical oxygen generators are there in the ceiling of the passenger cabin?"

I mused for a moment, and decided to be a smart ass:

"Who cares?"

He smiled. In his thick Austrian accent, he said,

"That's right! Who cares? You can't do anything to them and their operation requires no input from you once the masks drop. Maintenance might need to know something about this, but you don't. We're trying to stop asking questions like this- there's no point in them."

He then proceeded to ask several stump-the-chump style questions which I was not allowed to answer, as I already had the stock, correct answer to all of them.

"Who cares?"

While technological understanding of your equipment is required and certainly lends to aviator confidence, there comes a point where we just go too far sometimes. If you're looking to apply deep science and an esoteric level of knowledge to a situation on an aircraft, you're playing McGuyver and are WAY outside the definition requirements of memory items and check list use. At that point, if you really need things that bad, landing, and quickly, should be your immediate priority.

 

[jynxyjoe]

Re: 3407 Strikes a Cord Redux/Whatever you guys are arguing

While technological understanding of your equipment is required and certainly lends to aviator confidence, there comes a point where we just go too far sometimes. If you're looking to apply deep science and an esoteric level of knowledge to a situation on an aircraft, you're playing McGuyver and are WAY outside the definition requirements of memory items and check list use. At that point, if you really need things that bad, landing, and quickly, should be your immediate priority.

While I agree with the principal I think it helps having that understanding to help diagnose problems when I'm writing them up. Of course I preface everything to MX with, "Remember I'm just a dumbass pilot but..."

 

[Firebird2XC]

Re: 3407 Strikes a Cord Redux/Whatever you guys are arguing

While I agree with the principal I think it helps having that understanding to help diagnose problems when I'm writing them up. Of course I preface everything to MX with, "Remember I'm just a dumbass pilot but..."

As a former mechanic, there's a simple concept here.

Just treat it like a crime scene investigation. Remember as many details as possible, and record them in the write-up. Assuming it's somehow related, anyhow. Then let maintenance figure it out. The more data they have, the better conclusion they'll make.

In other words, don't diagnose faults as a pilot unless you're a maintenance pilot. You'll just as likely send maintenance down the wrong path as you would the right one. All maintenance really wants is for you to say, "This was on, this was not, and I did this, this, and this, and this happened."

No matter how well versed you are in aircraft systems, an experienced mechanic will trump you any day. Take a load off your brain and stop trying to do their jobs. It's why they're there.

 

[jynxyjoe]

Re: 3407 Strikes a Cord Redux/Whatever you guys are arguing

No matter how well versed you are in aircraft systems, an experienced mechanic will trump you any day. Take a load off your brain and stop trying to do their jobs. It's why they're there.

Good advice

 

[SpiraMirabilis]

Re: 3407 Strikes a Cord Redux/Whatever you guys are arguing

Why would I care how a rectifier turns AC to DC? I guess the question to ask is what does a TRU (or just a rectifier) do? All pilots SHOULD care about on most items is what it does, how it operates, any limitations of operation.

I do know that a rectifier uses diodes and anodes to change the waveform of the electrical signal, but that is minutia. As far as a pilot is concerned that is magic.