3407 Strikes a Cord Redux/Whatever you guys are arguing abou

[Killtron2000]

Seems like he thinks he knows what the 121 world is like.
I love when you see these 1 v. Everybody threads, and the one who stands alone is the one who really has no idea what he is talking about.

I guess to satisfy his critera for an interview, it must be entirely subjective, with a sim ride offered in whatever type plane the applicant feels comfortable flying. Get real. We are going to put you in one of OUR airplanes to see if there is a remote chance you can hack it. We are going to base our decesion on whether or not we LIKE you. If we think you will work well in our company, and crews we will likely offer you a job. I have flown with enough people to know what I do, and do not like. I am also pretty damn good at figuring out if your full of crap. If I miss it, the guys on the line figure it out pretty quick, and your life is pretty crappy untill you figure it out.


Very very few people make it through a regional without learning the ropes. This is why you need letters of rec. To move on. If you toss me under the bus, and 5 years after I move to a major, the dr of hr asks me if I ever flew with you, you won't get the job.

It's not what you know, it is who you know... And when.

Example, we are going to be hiring next spring. We may be the only place hiring, so it will be tough to get in. I'm not going to give you a good word, because right now I don't feel that you would do well in a crew enviroment. Not that you wouldn't, but it seems like you have a chip on your shoulder, or know everything... And there is no place for that in a cockpit.

I am a pilot that is on the interview panel at an airline... I may not be right, but I've got a pretty decent idea about what it takes to be hired. Rather than challeng the process, because you will continue to loose, ask questions and learn. When I say it is very rare for the less experienced pilot to be the better canidate, the info comes from first hand info. When you leave the 1 on 1 the call is made. We know if you made it or not, even if you have not simmed yet. I have nevered said hire him, and had them wash out on the sim.

The only bad pilot is one who is intentionally and willfully negligent. The rest can be trained.

I'm well aware that you are going to pick whoever you like to fly your planes. This is nothing new to me simply stating that doesn't actually make a point. If you recall I was arguing for what I would do in the hypothetical situation I owned an airline.

If somehow I logged enough hours between now and then to be competitive (and apparently all I have to do is survive this without getting any violations I don't actually have to learn anything) at your interview I would be able to talk my way into that job especially since that is one airline I could maybe get more than 1 internal rec. for. I don't mean any disrespect by this but colgan is not an airline I would want to work for maybe some people like it or will tolerate it to log hours but not me.

I know how this system works I'm not in denial about it. At fedex they post a list of the new hires and invite the current pilots to comment. Yeah it's all about who you know basically nepotism kind of a screwed up system IMHO. It's also why automated flight decks are so important and probably the biggest increase in safety will come from further development in that direction since we can't hope for anything but mediocrity from humans.

 

[Killtron2000]

Re: Remember 3407 Project Strikes a Chord

I'd hate to fly with kiltron. Seeing as he's never made a mistake behind the controls, he is due for one. I just hope no one else is with him when he makes it.

Where did I say I am infallible?

You've never actually met me in person as far as I know. I don't know how you can infer anything about me or what kind of pilot I am from what I wrote here.

 

[Kestrel452]

Re: Remember 3407 Project Strikes a Chord

Quit polluting what WAS once a wonderful thread. Seriously, this goes back to my previous statement. Save the arguing for OTHER threads. If we had as many "Gee guys I will spread the website" posts as we did rant posts in this thread we would have tons more people signing the R3407 guestbook showing support.
:sitaware:

Is the ADD here really this bad? Concentrate on the purpose of this thread and stop dazing into a tangent of arguing over stupid BS. I'm not saying I don't do that sometimes, I do, but I refrain from doing so in threads like these where it's necessary to be CONSTRUCTIVE.

 

[SoCalAprch]

Re: Remember 3407 Project Strikes a Chord

Where did I say I am infallible?

You've never actually met me in person as far as I know. I don't know how you can infer anything about me or what kind of pilot I am from what I wrote here.

Well you sure act like you know everything about stuff that you have no experience with. I have flown with a couple of those in my time and I hope to never have to do it again.

 

[ctab5060X]

Re: Remember 3407 Project Strikes a Chord

You really trust you can get to know somebody based on a 30 minutes one on one interview? I can sell myself as whatever I think the interviewer is looking for and there are other people who can practically turn that kind of lieing into an art form.

That is why the internal recommendations (that you are so against) are so important.

What's the rational for hiring people with internal recommendations? I disagree with that practice too it seems almost like nepotism.

Internal recommendations are usually more than just a friend of a friend of a friend. Usually it is someone you know personally and quite well that gets you in the door. I don't understand why you are so against it. Personally, I take recommending someone for a job very seriously. If I were to recommend someone for a job and they did poorly or made a fool out of themselves, then in turn, it makes me look bad.

At fedex they post a list of the new hires and invite the current pilots to comment. Yeah it's all about who you know basically nepotism kind of a screwed up system IMHO.

So, you don't want anyone who knows you to be able to speak on your behalf? The comments go both ways... both positive and negative. When you enter the 121 world, you are no longer just one individual flying for the airline, you are part of a greater entity that is magically called the "pilot group". That is why the face to face and internal recommendations are so important. If you are someone who is going to cause tons of friction in the group, no thanks, I'll pass...

 

[ctab5060X]

Re: Remember 3407 Project Strikes a Chord

Is the ADD here really this bad? Concentrate on the purpose of this thread and stop dazing into a tangent of arguing over stupid BS. I'm not saying I don't do that sometimes, I do, but I refrain from doing so in threads like these where it's necessary to be CONSTRUCTIVE.

Kestrel... calm down man! (j/k)

If discussing hiring practices and how airlines select their pilots is thread pollution and stupid BS, then something is wrong. I think it is great that even though the thread was started about the 3407 Project we brought up a topic that I think none of us have really considered when dealing with the issues in the wake of this tragedy... that being how the 121 world selects and decides to hire the pilots that sit up front.

I wouldn't exactly say we were arguing either... were are merely trying to discuss things intellectually. If you want arguing, try one of the other sites! I think it is great (and extremely constructive) if someone reads this thread about 3407 and sees that there is more to pilot interviews than just what is seen on the surface.

 

[Killtron2000]

Re: Remember 3407 Project Strikes a Chord

Quit polluting what WAS once a wonderful thread. Seriously, this goes back to my previous statement. Save the arguing for OTHER threads. If we had as many "Gee guys I will spread the website" posts as we did rant posts in this thread we would have tons more people signing the R3407 guestbook showing support.
:sitaware:

Is the ADD here really this bad? Concentrate on the purpose of this thread and stop dazing into a tangent of arguing over stupid BS. I'm not saying I don't do that sometimes, I do, but I refrain from doing so in threads like these where it's necessary to be CONSTRUCTIVE.

There are plenty of circlejerk threads here where I don't comment and everyone agrees with everyone else.

 

[Killtron2000]

Re: Remember 3407 Project Strikes a Chord

That is why the internal recommendations (that you are so against) are so important. Internal recommendations are usually more than just a friend of a friend of a friend. Usually it is someone you know personally and quite well that gets you in the door. I don't understand why you are so against it. Personally, I take recommending someone for a job very seriously. If I were to recommend someone for a job and they did poorly or made a fool out of themselves, then in turn, it makes me look bad.




So, you don't want anyone who knows you to be able to speak on your behalf? The comments go both ways... both positive and negative. When you enter the 121 world, you are no longer just one individual flying for the airline, you are part of a greater entity that is magically called the "pilot group". That is why the face to face and internal recommendations are so important. If you are someone who is going to cause tons of friction in the group, no thanks, I'll pass...

So you would think someone like myself couldn't get one of those too bad it's not true. This is just what happens when you don't evaluate on objective criteria. If I was at fedex and saw someone on that list who once long ago cut me off in the pattern while I was working on my PPL I might be so inclined as to try and ruin his chance there regardless of whether or not he is actually good at what he does.

 

[ctab5060X]

Re: Remember 3407 Project Strikes a Chord

So you would think someone like myself couldn't get one of those too bad it's not true.

Never said you couldn't get one. Just said you were against them.

If I was at fedex and saw someone on that list who once long ago cut me off in the pattern while I was working on my PPL I might be so inclined as to try and ruin his chance there regardless of whether or not he is actually good at what he does.

Wow, talk about holding a grudge against someone. You realize that in the professional world, you would probably lose a ton of respect from your fellow pilots if you actually did something like that.

 

[jynxyjoe]

Re: 3407 Strikes a Cord Redux/Whatever you guys are arguing

this a Re-mix? is Puffy gonna be on it?

 

[Gonzo]

Re: 3407 Strikes a Cord Redux/Whatever you guys are arguing

Killtron, a few questions:

How would a airline give someone a sim eval in a plane they have flown?

How could a airline test someone in a stressful emergency in the sim?

Do you see why companies like internal recommendations?

Do you see why it would be hard to come up with the type of questions you think they should when you can't come up with one?

 

[Kestrel452]

Re: Remember 3407 Project Strikes a Chord

There are plenty of circlejerk threads here where I don't comment and everyone agrees with everyone else.

What?

 

[tonyw]

Re: Remember 3407 Project Strikes a Chord

If I was at fedex and saw someone on that list who once long ago cut me off in the pattern while I was working on my PPL I might be so inclined as to try and ruin his chance there regardless of whether or not he is actually good at what he does.

What are you, three? That's what I'd expect from a three year old.

Dude, if you think there are jobs out there where only objective information is used to determine whether to hire someone, you're delusional.

And I do believe that delusions are a disqualifying medical condition.

 

[Killtron2000]

Re: 3407 Strikes a Cord Redux/Whatever you guys are arguing

Killtron, a few questions:

How would a airline give someone a sim eval in a plane they have flown?

How could a airline test someone in a stressful emergency in the sim?

Do you see why companies like internal recommendations?

Do you see why it would be hard to come up with the type of questions you think they should when you can't come up with one?

It doesn't have to be identical to something they are familiar with but if they are coming from a GA background then I think it would be more appropriate to use something like a frasca. The reason is because a pilot coming from a 172 into the cockpit of something like a crj is going to be like a deep sea tube worm trying to make a phone call. I don't really think that evaluation would be representive of their current skill or potential.


They can't make the situation actually life threatening but a job interview definitely puts people on the spot.

I wouldn't hire somebody because they have a buddy who works for the company. All the internal rec. tells me is you have a buddy who works here and has probably given you the inside scoop on what it is like and you are ok with that but it doesn't give me any assurance you are competent in any other way.

I think if I took the time I could come up with dozens of technical questions that aren't part of any published test bank. I think it's a poor argument to make that technical knowledge of systems, weather, FARs, IFR procedures or whatever topic is not necessary for a pilot. The argument I've heard made is it doesn't matter if you understand anything as long as you have CRM skills as if technical knowledge and CRM are mutually exclusive.

 

[Killtron2000]

Re: Remember 3407 Project Strikes a Chord

What are you, three? That's what I'd expect from a three year old.

Dude, if you think there are jobs out there where only objective information is used to determine whether to hire someone, you're delusional.

And I do believe that delusions are a disqualifying medical condition.

You're delusional if you think I stated or implied there are any jobs that don't hire based on at least some subjective criteria.

 

[ctab5060X]

Re: 3407 Strikes a Cord Redux/Whatever you guys are arguing

I wouldn't hire somebody because they have a buddy who works for the company. All the internal rec. tells me is you have a buddy who works here and has probably given you the inside scoop on what it is like and you are ok with that but it doesn't give me any assurance you are competent in any other way.

So, you wouldn't want a former instructor or student to personally vouch for your abilities? Much rather "make it on your own"?

 

[derg]

Re: 3407 Strikes a Cord Redux/Whatever you guys are arguing

Not to get dragged into yet another emergency debate on the internet, but at the last two airlines I've worked for, an internal recommendation is absolutely critical.

 

[Killtron2000]

Re: 3407 Strikes a Cord Redux/Whatever you guys are arguing

So, you wouldn't want a former instructor or student to personally vouch for your abilities? Much rather "make it on your own"?

I would take a letter of recommendation from them because it would help me get me hired but all it tells the interviewer is I have friends who work for the company.

 

[Killtron2000]

Re: 3407 Strikes a Cord Redux/Whatever you guys are arguing

Not to get dragged into yet another emergency debate on the internet, but at the last two airlines I've worked for, an internal recommendation is absolutely critical.

So the message is you may be a great pilot but we don't want you unless you happen to have a buddy who works here too.

 

[derg]

Re: 3407 Strikes a Cord Redux/Whatever you guys are arguing

So the message is you may be a great pilot but we don't want you unless you have happen to have a buddy who works here too.

Nah, just that you're willing to risk your name on the candidate. Even before the merger, at one point, we had over 10,000 pilots and even with that amount, it's a very small world and hiring one stinker can really cause a lot of waves.

One rotten recommendation and you can pretty much count yourself out of visiting the HR office again.

Whenever I wrote a recommendation, I absolutely meant it. Especially the part about how we needed this candidate on our seniority list rather than on the seniority list at our competitor, in a highly competitive market.

I couldn't tell you a single person that, at least at my carrier and even at Skyway (rest in peace) that would recommend someone they wouldn't be able to fly an entire month straight with.

I can pretty much guarantee you that without an internal recc from a pilot with good standing, if we were hiring, you wouldn't hear a peep from HR, besides the standard "we recieved your application". Even it's an internal, it needs to come from a firstname.lastname@southernjets.com email address.

There can be 8,000 to 20,000 applications on file for just a few hundred pilot positions when the majors are hiring and trust me, they're not going to dig through 20,000 applications with a fine tooth comb looking for Captain Fabulous. No one's got time for that when everyone knows at least a pilot or two that can fly the hell out of an airplane, pleasant to work with, stays crunchy in milk, smooth under pressure and won't embarass us by walking into the HR with a orange suit, gold "teefs" and unprepared.

That's probably not consistent with how you think it works, but that's the way it works.

If there are any Southernjetters that are reading this that didn't have an internal, speak up.