206 augered in at PAMR

[ppragman]

I'm really impressed at how much you take in and question to learn.
I wouldn't go along with maintaining level flight, but making sure you know of a landing spot is cruicial. I think Google Earth/Maps could be a good tool in helping us all figure out spots for fudged takeoffs, but also consider the fact that sometimes Google doesn't clearly show light standards, street widths, traffic and power lines. It's great to look and say 7th street - at least you have more of an idea of the person who hasn't even looked. Just don't forget to re-evaluate when you start flying from there.

As for takeoffs and losses of power, I was always taught to shove it. Since I was taught to climb initially at 75, you're only 10 over best glide and still close to the clean stall of 48 (say 50 to be sure). If you lose power while in a climb, all those numbers come up quickly, so the best way to avoid getting too far below 75 is to shove the yoke in to get the nose down and adjust from there. It's harder than you think. With the trim set to TO, it'll require a good bit of pressure to get the nose down. From there, set it up for best glide and find something open, quickly.

Take a look at this and see if your instructor will go over it with you. It's not required per the PTS, but it'll help to increase your arsenal of safety measures:
http://flighttraining.aopa.org/cfi_tools/publications/inst_reports2.cfm?article=5920

I drive a 207 almost daily, and if there is one thing about safely making a takeoff is that the airplane can fly, and will climb well below Vglide (70-80Kias in the 207). A lot of people will horse it off of the ground as quickly as possible (even on long runways) and climb well out of ground effect. I prefer to stay low and accelerate as much as possible before gently easing into a 300fpm climb (if I've got a load, empty 500-1000fpm happens pretty natural at 100kts without one) because in the 207 you can't make a turn back even at 500'. Really, in the 207, the only realistic option is to climb to 1000' before thinking about turning around is a possibility. Rather, I get fast, so that I don't stall spin crash burn instantly on loss of power, and aim for places that have long roads on the climbout. (outa MRI your best bet is to climb straight out of 25, or off set to the right, outa seven you've got wayyyyyy moer options). Speed is life.

 

[Champcar]

Yeah whatever.

Too me it comes off as desensitized, and immature.
I am going to guess you have not lost a close friend in this industry yet. Give it time.

You need to be desensitized a bit in this industry. It happens, it will happen to some one you know if not already.

 

[ozone]

Ppragman and Scandanavian13: thanks for the insight from some more experienced pilots. I will definitely bring up the AOPA practice recommendation to my instructor...good idea!

An idea has just sprung to my mind: Perhaps this website would do well to have a separate discussion folder where people list recent accidents (like this one) and people discuss what they would have done (with the info available) so that we can all learn in a less-formal setting than reading NTSB reports. Admittedly, it would be a bit of 20-20 hindsite combined with speculation, but perhaps also useful? Oh moderators...where are you?

 

[PaulRix]

Re: 206 accident at PAMR

Too me it comes off as desensitized, and immature.
I am going to guess you have not lost a close friend in this industry yet. Give it time.

I have to agree 100%.

 

[aloft]

Yeah whatever.

Too me it comes off as desensitized, and immature.
I am going to guess you have not lost a close friend in this industry yet. Give it time.

You're quite mistaken. I know very well the ugly side of aviation. I've seen the lifeless bodies of pilots and passengers lying next to aircraft wreckage I found as part of a CAP search crew. Most of the searches CAP prosecutes have dead people on the other end. (EDIT: well, not entirely true--most are actually false alarm ELT signals. But of the ones involving actual distress situations, survivors are rare.) I've watched people die in aircraft accidents. And yes, I've lost friends to aviation accidents. I've also had friends survive crash landings, so I know that side too. You have to harden yourself to it, or you'll go nuts--or worse, freeze at the wrong moment and kill yourself and anyone foolish enough to be aboard your aircraft.

You're probably making the mistake of looking at my total time and assuming I'm in my first year or two of aviation, like yourself. Truth is, I've been involved in aviation in various capacities since the 1980s.

 

[Scandinavian13]

Ppragman and Scandanavian13: thanks for the insight from some more experienced pilots. I will definitely bring up the AOPA practice recommendation to my instructor...good idea!

An idea has just sprung to my mind: Perhaps this website would do well to have a separate discussion folder where people list recent accidents (like this one) and people discuss what they would have done (with the info available) so that we can all learn in a less-formal setting than reading NTSB reports. Admittedly, it would be a bit of 20-20 hindsite combined with speculation, but perhaps also useful? Oh moderators...where are you?

ppragman is much more experienced, so I'd default to his words.

I would agree. I'm an air accident junkie. My mom used to find it morbid until I explained that, in general, with airplanes you don't live long enough to learn from your mistakes, so I have to learn from the mistakes of others. "Hindsight is 20-20" is only applicable to arguing about what the pilot should have done. That hindsight becomes foresight when it comes to making sure you don't repeat it.

As for the additional section, you could make the argument that it could go into the "You're the captain..." section. I do agree, though, that we could benefit from picking apart accidents.

Along those lines, if you're looking for good reading, I recommend the following books:
101 Things to do With Your Pilot's License - LeRoy Cook
The Black Box - Malcolm Macpherson
On a Wing and a Prayer - Malcolm Macpherson
The Killing Zone: How & Why Pilots Die - Paul A. Craig
Air Accident Investigation - David Owen

101 Things and Killing Zone are both targeted to the Private Pilot, but are both good reads for students of that license, too. Both talk extensively about vigilance related to safety.
Black Box and Wing and a Prayer are both books about accidents using CVR transcripts (Wing and a Prayer adds passenger accounts).
Air Accident Investigation uses accounts to explain how investigators come to their determinations.

 

[Itchy]

You're probably making the mistake of looking at my total time and assuming I'm in my first year or two of aviation, like yourself. Truth is, I've been involved in aviation in various capacities since the 1980s.

A) I never assume much about anyone on these types of forums.

B) My comment was not directed towards you.

c) You *DID* assume a bit about me though. I have been making a paycheck flying since '86, check airman, yada yada. I have lost a few friends along the way.

 

[PaulRix]

I can see that people in SAR positions, Emergency Services, Medical staff etc have, to some degree harden themselves to such things. I don't think that justifies using that terminology on a public forum though (because family and friends of those who died may read this thread someday). From someone who lost his brother to a flying accident a few years ago I can tell you that it came across as crass and rather tasteless, even though I am sure that was not the intention.