2004 v. 2006 for pilots

[wheelsup]

Delta has had 2 rounds of paycuts. 30% was the first and then an additional 15%.

Yes, but the payrate quoted in 2004 was the original, pre-911 payrate, so the numbers above are correct.

My point was that in 2004, US Air pilots maybe were making $75/hr, but if I remember correctly they were making more then that prior to their first round of paycuts (or 9-11). By 2004, their payrate was already reduced (and then reduced again). But I'm not totally sure.

 

[meyers9163]

Yes, but the payrate quoted in 2004 was the original, pre-911 payrate, so the numbers above are correct.

My point was that in 2004, US Air pilots maybe were making $75/hr, but if I remember correctly they were making more then that prior to their first round of paycuts (or 9-11). By 2004, their payrate was already reduced (and then reduced again). But I'm not totally sure.

Any truth to that? Never heard that before, then again did not really pay attention to things before 2004. I dont think anyone would argue that cuts have happen, and perhaps twice already. But I honestly wonder what would have happen to these airlines if they did not make the cuts. In addition did the government not have some say in these major airlines when they had their financial difficulties? Never truely knew what they did but i thought I heard they were doing something back then when all these troubles happen.

 

[surreal1221]

I dont think anyone was making an excuse. Just saying that due to the economy and what occured in order for these companies to stay afloat things did have to happen. It was not meant to offend anyone or make an excuse. Rather stating that in order for them to be here today things had to happen and unfortunately it was cuts in many aspects that affect many of our fellow JCers!

It undermines the process when we are critizing each others pay, and not speaking loudly and aggressively in regards to "management's" pay and golden parachutes.

Once again, why should the little guy, with a union, get shafted when management is able to skate off into the blue horizon without getting called out. It's ridiculous, and it needs to end.

It isn't going to end with those in the careerfield questioning the pay cuts over and over again, when profits are being made, and even worse when the profits are not being made - management individuals are still stealing loads of cash away from those who are actually providing the service.

It's all smoke and mirrors, and it's time to bust the mirrors into tiny little bits.

 

[Malko]

#1 That's a bit insensitive, isn't it? Look at those numbers, everyone except Delta is actually second round cuts if I remember correctly - IOW there were actually larger cuts taken.

Of course it's not what you make, it's what you keep - but when you go from making $250,000+/yr to making $70,000 - 150,000 you're gonna feel a pinch, unless you are a miser and live under a rock and stockpile your money. #2 Are you seriously suggesting it is these folks' fault for being financially irresponsible for losing their homes after taking a $50,000 - $170,000/yr pay cut (after taking pay cuts and getting knocked back to the right seat)?

#1 Insensitive, I don't think so but if that's the way it is taken, I apologize. It was more of a general statement regarding pay and living to the edges of ones paycheck.

#2 I am not suggesting it is their fault by any means. All I am saying is that there are people who are at these airlines who have taken the paycuts (which I think we can all agree are bad) and their lives have not been 'ruined' as stated in the 1st post. Have they had to make changes? Yes. Have their lives been 'ruined'? That would depend on ones definition of ruined.

 

[meritflyer]

Was there a link for any website that shows the finiancial records? Just wondering about this. I really would be interested in the actual financial aspects to all of this.

If you want to KISS (keep it simple stupid), go to Yahoo! and type in their stock quote, read in the "company information" section. All company officers salary and exercised stock options will be listed for the previous year.

If you want more detail, I'd suggest obtaining an annual financial report from a brokerage (which may take an accounting class..)

 

[meyers9163]

If you want more detail, I'd suggest obtaining an annual financial report from a brokerage (which may take an accounting class..)

Perhaps it would, but when you have a business administration degree you already have taken 4 semester of accounting but nice try! As i stated if there were a website I could just glance over it and see the information I wanted to see. Just trying to prove a point that nearly everyone took a paycut and it was not just pilots. Perhaps they were not as serve as the pilots but everyone must and did take a cut to keep out of bankruptcy. Its all

 

[meritflyer]

Was there a link for any website that shows the finiancial records? Just wondering about this. I really would be interested in the actual financial aspects to all of this.

I'd think a person with a "business admin" degree would know where to find such simple information (its reviewed in most business mgmt and finance classes a thousand times over).

I noticed on your profile, it says "student". College student or aviation student?

Must have over looked the obvious.

 

[meyers9163]

I'd think a person with a "business admin" degree would know where to find such simple information (its reviewed in most business mgmt and finance classes a thousand times over).

I noticed on your profile, it says "student". College student or aviation student?

Must have over looked the obvious.

And or both, Psychology and Business Admininstration Degrees as of May while flight training full time. And again those same classes would tell one that bankruptcy does not occur for random reasons. And also anyone would know that with that there are the restructuring that must occur. In addition it has to be approved by a judge. With that I know for a fact you cannot just show the cuts of a pilot because it is inaccurate and I know YOU know that as well. Its a great article no joke, however we must not look just at numbers alone! Statistics are all manipulated to prove whatever point you wish to prove anyways.

 

[Malko]

I'd think a person with a "business admin" degree would know where to find such simple information (its reviewed in most business mgmt and finance classes a thousand times over).

.......Must have over looked the obvious.

He Shoots, He Scores.....

 

[meyers9163]

He Shoots, He Scores.....

Scores? No scores need to be kept. Just trying to show that we cannot post numbers alone. In addition I dont know what source other then airlinepilotcentral he used for those numbers so I dont want to go find something and put a link that isnt accurate of what he was trying to prove/show. Therefore I wanted him to post his information and link to his information that might show a correlation between why we show just numbers and no explanation or any other numbers attached. lol again no score needs to be kept

ps.... I am known for comebacks anyways!

 

[meritflyer]

And or both, Psychology and Business Admininstration Degrees as of May while flight training full time. And again those same classes would tell one that bankruptcy does not occur for random reasons. And also anyone would know that with that there are the restructuring that must occur. In addition it has to be approved by a judge. With that I know for a fact you cannot just show the cuts of a pilot because it is inaccurate and I know YOU know that as well. Its a great article no joke, however we must not look just at numbers alone! Statistics are all manipulated to prove whatever point you wish to prove anyways.

Must have finished degree(s) early. I thought you were gonna be done in December 2006, according to your own record. Congrats.

There are obvious costs associated with bankruptcy and re-organization features. But, the argument to be made is that if a specific group (the pilots) bears much of such costs while executives bathe in raises, bonuses, stock options, and other forms of "compensation", one could argue this is boarder line unethical.

AMR paid out tens of millions to executives while pilots gave tens of millions while under their restructe plan, bankrupt or not, turned losses to the tune of nearly $1B.

No other group (except maybe mx) was asked for such concessions at the expense of executive reparation.

I posted the numbers as kind of a "oh shucks!" post. I think pilots are undervalued, personally. The compensation of excutives and senior mgmt is no secret though. Forbes, CNN, MSNBC, Fox, Time, The Economist, The McKinsey Quarterly, and so forth, have all done micro and macro analysis of the airlines and their compensation v. revenue of all government termed, "highly compensated persons" over the past 10 years. So its no secret that when the airline needs some dough, for any reason, they turn to the pilots, not as a last, but as a first resort.

 

[meyers9163]

Must have finished degree(s) early. I thought you were gonna be done in December 2006, according to your own record. Congrats.

There are obvious costs associated with bankruptcy and re-organization features. But, the argument to be made is that if a specific group (the pilots) bears much of such costs while executives bathe in raises, bonuses, stock options, and other forms of "compensation", one could argue this is boarder line unethical.

AMR paid out tens of millions to executives while pilots gave tens of millions while under their restructe plan, bankrupt or not, turned losses to the tune of nearly $1B.

No other group (except maybe mx) was asked for such concessions at the expense of executive reparation.

Very true..... And I was going to graduate early but I figured college is a once in a life time adventure so why rush it. Enjoy and train locally....... And again you have your information right there and I'd agree. Pilots do take one of the largest cuts...... I just dont some of our younger members to think that pilots are taking cuts for no reason. Just want them to know there were reasons behind it, that's all.... But again valid points taken!

 

[Champcar]

Per Dept. of Labor

The average hourly rate in the US is $16.91. Lets assume a person works 160 hours in a month. That equals $2705.60 a month. With 8 days off if a person gets the weekends off.

Delta, with lets say a 65 hour guarentee that equals $4940.00, not including Per Diem and how may days of will you get? 12,14??

Even with the pay cuts no one is hurting with cash flow.

 

[CFIscare]

I think it would be more interesting to view the 2001 V. 2006 payrates. That is where you are going to see the most shocking decreases.

that is brutal! i have a friend here at school whose father flies for delta as a 757 ca and she has told me that they have had to move because of it and her mom has to pick up a second job. that is rough and i feel so bad for her. like a carpet being pulled out from underneath you.

With all due respect to her and her dad, I know they went through a rough time, but a lot more pilots (and other airline employees) went through much worse than that.

Any truth to that? Never heard that before, then again did not really pay attention to things before 2004. I dont think anyone would argue that cuts have happen, and perhaps twice already. But I honestly wonder what would have happen to these airlines if they did not make the cuts. In addition did the government not have some say in these major airlines when they had their financial difficulties? Never truely knew what they did but i thought I heard they were doing something back then when all these troubles happen.

Oh yea, the pay for US was much more than that. (2004)

 

[meritflyer]

Very true..... And I was going to graduate early but I figured college is a once in a life time adventure so why rush it. Enjoy and train locally....... And again you have your information right there and I'd agree. Pilots do take one of the largest cuts...... I just dont some of our younger members to think that pilots are taking cuts for no reason. Just want them to know there were reasons behind it, that's all.... But again valid points taken!

Well, we're on the same page then. Congrats with college. Well earned.

In my opinion, our younger members need to understand that pilots represent a liability to most airlines, not an asset. If for any reason business turns south, what is the first rule of business? Your liabilities must not out weigh your assets (revenue, material goods, bonds, ect.).

Just know that when financial troubles are brewing and liabilities amount to more than assets, liabilities must be decreased which in the case of the airlines would equate to one (or two) of several things. For example, reduce number of aircraft to reduce overhead and operating costs. Issure? Reduced capacity in all areas and excessive dependence on existing assets (airplanes). Without going into detail (carpal tunnel setting in!), pilots are like a cupcake to a fat kid in the world of airline management.

Yum! Yum!

 

[CFIscare]

Per Dept. of Labor

The average hourly rate in the US is $16.91. Lets assume a person works 160 hours in a month. That equals $2705.60 a month. With 8 days off if a person gets the weekends off.

Delta, with lets say a 80 hour guarentee that equals $6080.00, not including Per Diem and how may days of will you get? 12,14??

Even with the pay cuts no one is hurting with cash flow.

Even with your generous days off, I still don't like that comparision. Flying is much more than selling cars or changing tires, and the pay should reflect that.

 

[Champcar]

Even with your generous days off, I still don't like that comparision. Flying is much more than selling cars or changing tires, and the pay should reflect that.

Thats the average for all jobs, including factory work, medical, buisness...and flipping burgers, everything is covered. Pilots are on the upper end, period.

 

[desertdog71]

I'll quote the great Patrick Ewing on this one.

"Sure we make a lot, but we spend a lot too."

If you are used to a certain amount of cashflow every month and it gets reduced, its gonna hurt your lifestyle. Sure these people can survive on the reduced pay, but keep in mind that they probably have mortgages, car payments, and spending habits that reflect their higher income. There aren't too many scrooges like me out there.

 

[wheelsup]

True story - we were boarding the other day, and a 7 year old kid walks up. The Captain was doing the 'ol chit-chat, asks him what he wants to be when he grows up.

"A police officer. Or a pilot. I don't know which one."

Captain repilies "probably both."

It was funny, yet sad, because it was true.

Pilots worked their butts off to get to a major where they could clear $100k their second year. And that was when the COLA was 50% what it is now. Now the cost of living is double, and pay is half. Of course, pay is stagnent or declining throughout the entire country, so pilots aren't the only ones (although they did take some large pay cuts). I think the secret (seriously) is to move to a 3rd world country at this point. Even with my limited 401k and IRA, I could probably retire now!! I hear Costa Rica is nice.

 

[meritflyer]

Of course, pay is stagnent or declining throughout the entire country, so pilots aren't the only ones (although they did take some large pay cuts).

... Lou Dobbs "Attack on the Middle Class"

Pay is down, yet consumer spending is at a record high?

Must be those damn rich CEOs!

Not debating, just making a point.