172R/172SP Be Careful And Verify

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Im just stating that you are on dangerous ground when you start inventing checklists.

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Agreed - INVENTING your own checklist could be dangerous.

However - the mere transfer of information from the POH to your own checklist shouldn't pose a problem.

I did this with both the Traumahawk and the Travel Air. Before I had it laminated, I checked, re-checked (let it sit), then tripple checked it to make sure that I had not left anything out.... and then I ran it by my instrcutor who looked it over before I FINALLY had it laminated into it's final version.

Nothing wrong with that in the least. Just to not take liberties and change the information.
 
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Im not trying to start a riot here folks. Im just stating that you are on dangerous ground when you start inventing checklists.

[/ QUOTE ]Then maybe there's no disagreement here at all. I didn't see anyone mention anything about "inventing" a checklist and making up flight procedures. And I think most of us thought you were saying, "use only the original checklist that comes out of the POH. Don't make any changes to it whatsoever."
 
R2F - Lawyers advised Cessna, Piper and Beech to make their checklists "Suggested" or "Recommended" - they are no longer FAA certified (for real!)

All the posts on here have been great! Yes making your own checklist is adventurous, but I agree with the consensus, as long as you follow the POH and the Normal Expanded Procedures, you should be ok!

Ditto for emergency checklists. I've yet to see a really good small plane QRH (Quick Reference Handbook) for emergencies.
 
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R2F - Lawyers advised Cessna, Piper and Beech to make their checklists "Suggested" or "Recommended" - they are no longer FAA certified (for real!)

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Hmm - live and learn. Didn't know that. I'm not sure that would excuse them from any liabilty though. Could be wrong.

Then I guess the question is - what are we supposed to use as a checklist if even the POH checklist is "suggested"?

Anybody know?
 
Under 135 or 121 you use whatever is approved by your Chief Pilot or Director of Training (depending on your company manual.)

The FAA requires that you use a checklist. They used to say a "manufacturer's approved checklist." I can no longer find that phrase in any of my updated publications. I have found "approved checklist" but it doesn't say by whom.
 
So... if the Chief PIlot of my flight school says to use the POH checklist, then..... back to square one?

For the 172N, 172M, 172SP, 152 and Piper Warrior, I've been using checklists I bought from my FBO that are made by a company whose name escapes me (it's not SureCheck, I know that much).

For the Traumahawk and Travel Air, I made my own from the POH(s).
 
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R2F - Lawyers advised Cessna, Piper and Beech to make their checklists "Suggested" or "Recommended" - they are no longer FAA certified (for real!)

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Hmm - live and learn. Didn't know that. I'm not sure that would excuse them from any liability though. Could be wrong.

Then I guess the question is - what are we supposed to use as a checklist if even the POH checklist is "suggested"?

[/ QUOTE ]Actually, I don't think that the FAA =ever= certified checklists.

And no, it wouldn't necessarily excuse Cessna from liability. The "disclaimer" (such as it is) in this case is really based o reality. If a checklist really tried to cover everything, it would be unusable. (Ever seen the one from a Diamond DA-40?). Everything is not covered. Look at the preflight inspection checklist from a C172. Looks pretty detailed, huh? Bet if you follow it to the letter, you'll miss important stuff. How many don't know that there are three counterweights on each aileron? Or, can you point out mention of some of the standard safety wire locations in the checklist?

I have a checklist for a 1967 Mooney M20C. The only emergency procedure listed is for an electrical problem - no a fire. I also have a copy of a 1957 C182 manual. The narrative teaching checklist style that talks about how to fly the airplane ("Avoid dragging brake by keeping heels on the floor" in the takeoff checklist) is a very nice and useful contrast to the "point-response" format of current checklists.

Once upon a time, pilots were expected to =know= a lot of stuff. After all, no matter how complicated the manufacturers make it, doesn't the "Engine fire in flight" emergency checklist come down to (1) shut the fuel (2) shut the vents (3) get the heck down!?

I guess the manufacturers began to think that more information was a better thing. (true). But when you give =more= information, a lot of people think you're giving =all= information. You're not. You can't. And disclaimer words like "suggested" procedures appear.

You still use the POH and it's Normal Operations Section (both checklist and expanded) as your guide to how to fly the airplane. Are they giving you a guarantee? No, but so what?
 
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Once upon a time, pilots were expected to =know= a lot of stuff. After all, no matter how complicated the manufacturers make it, doesn't the "Engine fire in flight" emergency checklist come down to (1) shut the fuel (2) shut the vents (3) get the heck down!?

I guess the manufacturers began to think that more information was a better thing. (true). But when you give =more= information, a lot of people think you're giving =all= information. You're not. You can't. And disclaimer words like "suggested" procedures appear.

You still use the POH and it's Normal Operations Section (both checklist and expanded) as your guide to how to fly the airplane. Are they giving you a guarantee? No, but so what?

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We're required to know checkilst "boldface items" . Certain critical EPs have the first 3-5 steps printed in boldface. This means that they are critical action items that must be committed to memory. There may be follow-up items that are considered "clean-up" items on the checklist, but the boldface items/steps must be known cold.

And there's good reason for that.
 
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We're required to know checkilst "boldface items" . Certain critical EPs have the first 3-5 steps printed in boldface. This means that they are critical action items that must be committed to memory. There may be follow-up items that are considered "clean-up" items on the checklist, but the boldface items/steps must be known cold.

And there's good reason for that.

[/ QUOTE ]There is. But, although the "boldface" concept has been around for a long time, it's fairly new to small airplane checklists. In Cessna 172s, for example, it first began with the last of the 172P models. A lot good flight schools are using the concept and rewriting checklists to include boldface items.

Of course, these are still items that a little (very little) thought and aircraft knowledge (sometimes a lot) would give you.

Quick, without looking, and without thinking of the boldface items (if you do have them memorized let someone else answer), while flying along you smell burning insulation. What is the very first thing you do?
 
Just one concern here Doc. Im not gonna hammer you for poor judgements regarding your "Checklist Choices" But I have to mention that Vx is in no way related to flaps. Vx is simply the speed at which a given aircraft will climb the fastest as a function of distance. The procedure you described involving flaps is simply for a shortfield takeoff in order to get you off the ground in a short distance. But please dont confuse Vx with the use of flaps. I can assure you that your Skyhawk will comfortably climb at Vx in a clean configuration.
 
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Quick, without looking, and without thinking of the boldface items (if you do have them memorized let someone else answer), while flying along you smell burning insulation. What is the very first thing you do?



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To answer quickly with no reference: There's no boldface item for us in this particular EP don't know why), but the first thing you always do is take care of the pilot first. That means insure mask up, gangload O2 regulator (100% O2, emergency positive pressure). That's the first thing you do, and it's not even part of the EP yet. In fact, you really have two EPs here:

-Smoke and fumes in cockpit
-electrical fire in cockpit

Smoke and fumes handle first, handle electrical second. For the electrical, begin securing electrical components to include master battery if necessary.
 
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To answer quickly with no reference: There's no boldface item for us in this particular EP don't know why), but the first thing you always do is take care of the pilot first. That means insure mask up, gangload O2 regulator (100% O2, emergency positive pressure).

[/ QUOTE ]I thought we were talking small airplanes here. So fare, I haven't come across a Cessna 172 I fly that had a mask or on-board oxygen. Besides, unless it's a completely sealed system, with the possibility of an electrical fire about to take place in the cockpit, I not sure 100% oxygen flowing around the cockpit is such a good idea. I don't think taking care of the pilot includes burning her to a cinder.
shocked.gif


BTW, I noticed an error in my post. The smell is burning =electrical= insulation.
 
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Just one concern here Doc. Im not gonna hammer you for poor judgements regarding your "Checklist Choices" But I have to mention that Vx is in no way related to flaps.

[/ QUOTE ]Maybe, but I understand the confusion. Newer pilots, even those with private certificates, are often confused by the difference between Vx and the obstacle speed listed in the short field takeoff checklist and performance charts in some airplanes. Logically, obstacle clearance climb should be at Vx, but the book gives you a slower speed.

Of course, the slower speed is usually best angle of climb with the recommended short field takeoff flap setting, while the published Vx is clean.
 
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To answer quickly with no reference: There's no boldface item for us in this particular EP don't know why), but the first thing you always do is take care of the pilot first. That means insure mask up, gangload O2 regulator (100% O2, emergency positive pressure).

[/ QUOTE ]I thought we were talking small airplanes here. So fare, I haven't come across a Cessna 172 I fly that had a mask or on-board oxygen. Besides, unless it's a completely sealed system, with the possibility of an electrical fire about to take place in the cockpit, I not sure 100% oxygen flowing around the cockpit is such a good idea. I don't think taking care of the pilot includes burning her to a cinder.
shocked.gif


BTW, I noticed an error in my post. The smell is burning =electrical= insulation.

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I thought you were talking about what the procedure was for me and my plane. For my plane, the O2 mask is sealed, and best to keep the pilot alive. Two different methods, but the same idea regardless of aircraft. I still say take care of the pilot first. You aren't worth a damn if you're incapacitated/asphyxiated by whatever acrid smoke and fumes, and the associated crap in them, you're breathing in while trying to solve this EP. You'll ony end up digging your own grave as your dead-ass body gets buried in the crater that your now-coffin plane impacts into. Vent the cockpit first, then begin shutting down electrics. Once secured, clean-up with the checklist.
 
I have not seen the 172 POH, but I would be careful of statements like "Vx does not change with flaps". I would guess that it does. The Arrow has 2 Vx's and 2 Vy's, depending on gear up or down. I would imagine that if the gear effects the speeds, flaps would too.
 
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Just one concern here Doc. Im not gonna hammer you for poor judgements regarding your "Checklist Choices" But I have to mention that Vx is in no way related to flaps. Vx is simply the speed at which a given aircraft will climb the fastest as a function of distance. The procedure you described involving flaps is simply for a shortfield takeoff in order to get you off the ground in a short distance. But please dont confuse Vx with the use of flaps. I can assure you that your Skyhawk will comfortably climb at Vx in a clean configuration.

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Fair enough, but let's put it this way: there are two airspeeds you need to be concerned with. Section 4-5 of the 172S Information Manual lists these two vital airspeeds:

1) Short field takeoff, flaps 10 degrees, speed at 50 feet . . . 56 KIAS. (Also see section 5-14 to verify this airspeed).

2) Best angle of climb, sea level . . . 62 KIAS.

IOW, if you select a short field takeoff with 10 degrees, you DON'T look for 62 kts, you look for 56 KIAS at 50 feet. That's the standard short field with 50-ft FAA trees. After that, you can pitch for Vy and retract flaps at 60 KIAS (see 4-24).

What I was saying is that while it may be true that 62 KIAS is Vx, you won't be using that value for a short-field takeoff. One of the checklists recommends 62 KIAS for a short-field for this aircraft and, according to the POH, this is incorrect.

You are correct in saying that the lower value is not Vx, but the checklist in question is incorrect in assuming that Vx is the value to be used for a short-field.
 
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Just one concern here Doc. Im not gonna hammer you for poor judgements regarding your "Checklist Choices" But I have to mention that Vx is in no way related to flaps.

[/ QUOTE ]Maybe, but I understand the confusion. Newer pilots, even those with private certificates, are often confused by the difference between Vx and the obstacle speed listed in the short field takeoff checklist and performance charts in some airplanes. Logically, obstacle clearance climb should be at Vx, but the book gives you a slower speed.

Of course, the slower speed is usually best angle of climb with the recommended short field takeoff flap setting, while the published Vx is clean.

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And that is the value one is interested in on takeoff. If, for example, one decides to climb at Vx inflight, that is a different value. But what I was talking about was the incorrect assumption by the flight school checklist that Vx was the value to be used for short fields.

If you climb at Vx with 10 degrees of flaps, you're cheating yourself out of some altitude (according to the IM).
 
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Be careful with the "at the Private level" stuff. I freely admit that the newbie implication fully applies to me (just shy of 200 hours), but there are private pilots out there who have thousands of hours and who can and do easily fly better and know more than some "pilots at the commercial level."

Go ahead and warn me to be careful--I need to hear that as a low-time pilot--but you'd do well to change your attitude about the private being a "level," as if it is, by definition, a stage which you need to pass through.
 
Re: and by the way

The reason the obstacle clearance speed is lower than Vx is a very simple one. You rotate at a slower speed than Vx, then pitch for a Vx attitude. The only way you could actually achieve Vx at 50' is to pitch for a very shallow climb that would not clear the obstacle. So you pitch for a Vx attitude, if you hold this pitch setting you would eventually stabilize at Vx in a climb, but after clearing the obstacle, there is no need. So after the obstacle is cleared, we just pitch for Vy. Unless you have a very large obstacle to clear, you will usually never see Vx on a short take off.
 
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