1500TT minimums ?

There's three issues at play here.

First off is the 141/61 training pipeline. The "standards" of training in this country are varied and inconsistent. Some places (whether it's a ma and pa outfit or a Riddle type massive university flight training program) just teach to the bare minimums or have such restrictive policies that students don't ever get a good fundamental base of knowledge and experience. Couple that with some DPEs and "stage check" pilots who are like Santa Clause and lots of pilots that are weak never are able to strengthen their skills and then pass their checkrides when maybe they shouldn't. Because you can (mostly) throw money at a problem and make it go away (extra training, retraining, retesting etc), almost anybody who has the finances and time can get any and all their ratings. Related to this problem is the fact that many training setups (especially the bigger academies) tend to inbreed and hire their students as instructors who then pass along the same training deficiencies that they were subject to, to their students. And the cycle continues, producing pilots who are weak in some areas due to a lack of training and exposure or pilots who are just weak in general but despite that have managed to squeak through by throwing money at the problem.

The second issue is the fact that you can get hired at an airline with low time. Take away the 1500 hour number and just focus on the fact that right now the number is 250 (or 210 if you went through a 141 program). By not forcing pilots to do ANYTHING beyond what they did to get their commercial ticket before heading to the right seat of an RJ, there is a whole world of experience that these pilots never get exposed to. I don't care if a guy spends 800 hours doing circles in a pattern. He is going to know more AFTER those 800 hours than he did before. This buffer of flight time allows the pilots who had holes in their training due to deficiencies in the teachers to hopefully start to fill in some of those holes. The student who wasn't ever allowed up in a crosswind of more than 10 knots will, in 800 hours of pattern work probably experience a crosswind of more than 10 knots. The student who's instructor never took them into busy airspace will, in 800 hours of buzzing around, probably experience a busy airport. The student who never saw an actual cloud while getting their instrument rating in Arizona in the summer, will, in 800 hours of flying probably get the chance to fly through some clouds and actually use their rating.

The final issue is that airlines are far from selective when hiring new pilots. There is no good way to evaluate a candidates airmanship in a 1 hour interview so they go solely on a quick take of their personality, the ability to pass a knowledge test and recommendations. None of those things is a very good predictor of how a pilot will perform down the road. Flight time is also sometimes used as a screener (which is an ok thing based on the previous paragraph) but it is generally just used as a minimum threshold. As we saw during the "great pilot shortage of 2008" the minimum number very quickly became 250.

Coupled with this issue is the fact that airlines push people through training as quickly as they can and while most places have "good" training programs, a weak pilot can very easily slip through the cracks (as long as they cooperate and graduate) and become a ticking time bomb on the line.

The solution, as has been stated multiple times throughout this post is to solve these problems at each step of the process. Mandate better initial pilot training, from the PPL level onward. Ensure that DEs are doing their job and not just in sweetheart deals with various training academies. Raise the minimum number of hours needed for 121 jobs (which has been done although I'd have been ok with the 135 mins already in place as they've seemed to work for a while now). Force the airlines to be more selective in who they hire. I'm the last person that wants tougher interviews but there should be more scenario based testing and less rote memorization. Also, the training needs to be continuously improved so weak links are weeded out.
 
Even though they both had a decent amount of time in type, and experience with 121 ops? I blame the craptastic "fly it out" stall training we all received at that time, not total time.


I thoyght he had something like 120 hours in type didn't he?


Sent from 1865 by telegraph....
 
Then why did the FO (hired with more than 1500 hours BTW) think that would help? Why did she not say WTF ARE YOU DOING CAPTAIN PUSH THE DAMN THING FORWARD! It was like she was tired or something. Hmmm...

The fact is there is no information contained in the NTSB report that supports your opinion.

There was an obvious issue with the captain. Hired with 5000 hours or 500 hours do you really think it would have made a difference? Even in his class at GIA he was having issue with BASIC airmanship. My IFR students wouldn't have had these issues.

Are you just upset that the minimums for the airlines is getting raised? When I got hired at Pinnacle, it took 1800 hours and 400 ME before I could get a call. The lowlifes that bought their way into the Gulfstream program got interviews at 600 hours.

The CA bought himself a shortcut into the airlines with minimal outside experience... that is a fact. The absolute worst pilots (they meant well but didn't know well) I flew with were ones that were his exact profile (mid-life career changer, GIA).

The ATP thing is one part of a multi-layered approach to try to fix this mess. Don't miss the forest for the trees!
 
1500 hour pilots will still go fly for peanuts to build experience. 1500TT does not put someone in the "experienced professionals" category (exception being military pilots), and someone with 1500 hours teaching in 172s will still more than likely go and fly RJs for $23/hr in order to build turbine experience.

This 1500 rule is a thinly veiled attempt at raising working conditions, not an actual increase in safety. In reality, it's nothing more than pilots who already "got theirs" pulling up the ladder behind them, knowing full well that they also gladly took low-paying jobs with low time.

This.

A perfect example is in another thread (too lazy to find) where Nark mentions that SJS is alive and well with people having 1500 tt wanting to fly the 170 and not getting caught flying one of those prop jobs (the Q).
 
Excellent post, Bob. Agree entirely.

PS. Although as an Oberstfuhrer in the Grammatik SS, I am honor-bound to observe that the correct syntax would be "There ARE three issues at play"... ;)
 
I remember discussing the idea of an ATP requirement to kill the PFT bottom feeders and the puppy mill flight schools at the meet and greet at the Hard 8 BBQ the very day that 3407 would crash a few hours later. Firebird, Qugar, Mikecweb, myself and several others were there.
[thread drift]
mmmmmm BBQ
[/thread drift]

Carry on.
 
PS. Although as an Oberstfuhrer in the Grammatik SS, I am honor-bound to observe that the correct syntax would be "There ARE three issues at play"... ;)

Good thing Congress didn't mandate grammatical testing be one of the requirements to operate a 121 airplane. I'd be hosed.
 
Are you just upset that the minimums for the airlines is getting raised? When I got hired at Pinnacle, it took 1800 hours and 400 ME before I could get a call. The lowlifes that bought their way into the Gulfstream program got interviews at 600 hours.

The CA bought himself a shortcut into the airlines with minimal outside experience... that is a fact. The absolute worst pilots (they meant well but didn't know well) I flew with were ones that were his exact profile (mid-life career changer, GIA).

The ATP thing is one part of a multi-layered approach to try to fix this mess. Don't miss the forest for the trees!

No. I am upset that we're using "safety" to do so.

I don't disagree with the crap GIA program etc. But that is a separate issue from the 1500 hr deal. Why 1500 hours? What research was done to prove that could improve safety? There is none.

As far as restoration of the industry, yes, 1500 undoubtably will have an effect on it.
 
I don't disagree with the crap GIA program etc. But that is a separate issue from the 1500 hr deal. Why 1500 hours? What research was done to prove that could im1prove safety? There is none.
Similarly, there is no research (of which I'm aware) which suggests that 250 hour pilots are just as "safe" (whatever that means) as 1500 hour pilots. So, until there's research one way or the other, we're stuck with logic and our experiences. My experience suggests very strongly that 1500 hour pilots are significantly more competent than 250 hour pilots (myself included). My logic agrees. Consider: No one argues that an inexperienced waiter, chef, engineer, attorney, doctor, or actuary is as competent as someone in the same profession with a great deal of experience. The notion is farsical, for any other profession. Just why do imagine that might be?

Doing stuff makes you better at doing stuff. This is not rocket surgery.
 
Similarly, there is no research (of which I'm aware) which suggests that 250 hour pilots are just as "safe" (whatever that means) as 1500 hour pilots. So, until there's research one way or the other, we're stuck with logic and our experiences. My experience suggests very strongly that 1500 hour pilots are significantly more competent than 250 hour pilots (myself included). My logic agrees. Consider: No one argues that an inexperienced waiter, chef, engineer, attorney, doctor, or actuary is as competent as someone in the same profession with a great deal of experience. The notion is farsical, for any other profession. Just why do imagine that might be?

Logic also dictates that we won't die in an airplane crash if we don't fly in an airplane.

Experience isn't everything. Training, Fatigue, and Professionalism, that is what matters to me when I'm in the back of a plane. I hope they're trained well, not barely getting by, I hope they're not fatigued, and I hope they're professional--following SOP, briefing departures and approaches etc. I don't give a crap how many hours they have. Because no matter the amount of hours they have; if they nearly wash out of training every time, or they aren't good it doesn't matter. If they're fatigued it doesn't matter. If they're unprofessional it doesn't matter. Those factors can kill me. Their TT when hired has nothing to do with anything.

I agree with the logic. However, experience in the right seat has taught me that it really means nothing if the guy you're flying with is an idiot. Really, it means nothing.

Idiot in the left seat that somehow just barely passes training, and barely makes it through every cycle-that is a problem. Think 8-year captain here. He has lots of experience but for some reason doesn't understand basics. And he is a previous 1500 hour CFI. They are out there, but thankfully it's rare, well at least I hope it is.
 
I think 1500 hrs is perfect for airlines. 1200 for fewer pax or no pax, 1500 for a lot of pax. Seems fair to me whether you think it's arbitrary or not. If they're not going to raise 121 minimums then lower 135 minimums.
 
Well, let's ask the polity at large. Wish I knew how to start a poll. How many pilots with >1500 hours of experience think that they were as competent at 250 hours as they are now. Sound off. I will, predictably, remain silent. I barely knew which side pointed forwards at 250 hours. By 1500 hours I was just beginning not to be a threat to everything and everyone beneath me. Maybe I'm an outlier, though. Let's find out.
 
Logic also dictates that we won't die in an airplane crash if we don't fly in an airplane.
Sure doesn't! Plenty of people have died in plane crashes that weren't in the plane. The plane has to impact somewhere when it comes plummeting out of the sky. ;)

Experience isn't everything. Training, Fatigue, and Professionalism, that is what matters to me when I'm in the back of a plane. I hope they're trained well, not barely getting by, I hope they're not fatigued, and I hope they're professional--following SOP, briefing departures and approaches etc. I don't give a crap how many hours they have. Because no matter the amount of hours they have; if they nearly wash out of training every time, or they aren't good it doesn't matter. If they're fatigued it doesn't matter. If they're unprofessional it doesn't matter. Those factors can kill me. Their TT when hired has nothing to do with anything.

Great logic until the last line. TT when hired is a barrier for increased outside experience in the smorgasborg of flying opportunities out there available to low time pilots. I know for certain from my own experience that I was a far more developed and mature pilot from when I first started CFIing with 300 hours to when I finally got a call from an airline with 1800 hours.

I agree with the logic. However, experience in the right seat has taught me that it really means nothing if the guy you're flying with is an idiot. Really, it means nothing.

I learned a significant amount from the idiots I flew with when I was in the right seat at a regional. Namely, how not to be an idiot!

Idiot in the left seat that somehow just barely passes training, and barely makes it through every cycle-that is a problem. Think 8-year captain here. He has lots of experience but for some reason doesn't understand basics. And he is a previous 1500 hour CFI. They are out there, but thankfully it's rare, well at least I hope it is.

There's always a few here and there no matter what steps are taken. One of the worst pilots I flew with at 9E (both aircraft management and judgement) was a guy with hired 3000 hours single pilot freight. The point of the 1500 thing is that it is one aspect of a multi-layered approach to mitigate the risk.
 
I've been only reading this thread, but finally wanted to step in for a second. I was hired on at Lakes at 800hrs. In the past 500 hours I've flown 121, I've learned so much more than when I was a wet CFI. But I don't know if those experiences would be any different if than I was at 1300hrs of just flight instructing. What gets me a little bit are the guys in my position that won't make the 1500hrs and will be furloughed. We have a few people that will be around 1000-1200 hrs by August. They will have around 400ish hours with Lakes 121 and around 600 ish from flight instructing and general aviation. Those guys will be fully qualified, competent FO's that can fly a good plane on one day, then not legal the next! I can't wrap my head around that one...
 
If you could show me a way that the FAA can force the airlines to adopt a Military or European training model, I would support it. But, how exactly do you create an incentive for a private company to spend an exorbitant sum of money for training that will add nothing to the bottom line?

The best we can do is demand that potential airline pilots have a moderate amount of experience by enforcing an arbitrary total time requirement. It's not perfect by a long shot, but it's a start.

Much, much, MUCH tighter oversight of civilian training programs by the FAA. As of now, if you buy a Gleim book you can memorize all the answers to the written tests, without learning the information. For my first two written exams, I actually studied and learned the information, and was getting scores in the 80's percentage wise. Then someone clued me into the fact you can buy a Gleim book, memorize the answers, and score 100%. Why actually grasp the information? Funny thing was, although my scores did not reflect it, I felt I learned more studying for those first two tests than I did any other.

How about airline recurrent training where they basically spoon-feed you the answers?

I think we can all admit we know people who are professional pilots that would never have made it if the training programs were more demanding. Then we all ask ourselves why we have such crap FO's sitting in the right seat... Maybe because many pilots have had their hands held through training? What about people who just don't have the aptitude to be a pilot?

In the last 10+ years, every time I have suggested that the requirements and training programs be more demanding, I get chastised. Yes all pilots will pontificate how the job is so demanding and advanced, and how they deserve better pay and benefits. You know how you get paid better? You make yourself more marketable than the next guy. You become an expensive resource that is highly desired, rather than an easily replaceable Joe Schmo who has $120,000 in Sallie Mae loans.
 
Sure doesn't! Plenty of people have died in plane crashes that weren't in the plane. The plane has to impact somewhere when it comes plummeting out of the sky. ;)

Great logic until the last line. TT when hired is a barrier for increased outside experience in the smorgasborg of flying opportunities out there available to low time pilots. I know for certain from my own experience that I was a far more developed and mature pilot from when I first started CFIing with 300 hours to when I finally got a call from an airline with 1800 hours.

I learned a significant amount from the idiots I flew with when I was in the right seat at a regional. Namely, how not to be an idiot!

There's always a few here and there no matter what steps are taken. One of the worst pilots I flew with at 9E (both aircraft management and judgement) was a guy with hired 3000 hours single pilot freight. The point of the 1500 thing is that it is one aspect of a multi-layered approach to mitigate the risk.

Welp, more experience does equate to more experience. No doubt there. But the type of experience matters. There is so much more than time that matters.

I don't even know why or what I'm arguing to be honest. 1500 was an arbitrary number-doesn't the rule require an ATP anyway? I don't really disagree with anything you're saying, I just think that there are bigger issues here. And the ATP rule is diluting the important stuff. I would rather see people not killed, and since training and fatigue are things that can actually be fixed I'd like to see those getting attention. But they aren't. Nobody really cares about training, nor does anyone care about fatigue. Where are those rest rules. How are the new training programs? We have AQP which is pretty much non-jeopardy and they can retrain w/o fail twice. We pass the ATP written my memorizing answers. We don't know jack crap about anything. Way to go.

But we're really doing a lot to help with that ATP rule. Yea, its for safety. Ok.

This is what I'm talking about. The ATP rule does nothing NOW to FIX anything. We have broken rest rules and broken fatigue rules. That is what got people killed in the Colgan crash. Fatigue and training... KILLED people. Yet nothing has been fixed since then. But lets send experience pilots to the streets. We have experienced pilots being sent to the street because of age. But training and fatigued hasn't been fixed. The ATP rule is in the spotlight.

There is no way I was too dangerous at 800 hours to do my job. Am I more competent now? Yes, absolutely. But to say I was dangerous or the passengers were in danger when I had 800 hours is ridiculous. I wasn't. Neither were any of my classmates. I was trained very well, followed SOPs, and made sure my job was as boring as possible.

I don't disagree that 250 hours is too few to be in a jet. What kind of experience should they have? I don't know, enough to not kill people I guess. But I sure hope they have had good training. Doing something poorly for 1k hours isn't going to improve safety either.
 
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