1500TT minimums ?

JTrain, you are comparing apples to oranges. You are talking about people who are spending years in school--training--in preparation to go out and obtain a professional position. A pilot can spend less than a year obtaining all their certificates and ratings in an abbreviated program, then be sent out to TEACH other people how to fly with NO experience. Shouldn't our CFIs be the most experienced of all? How can you effectively teach someone when you have no experience to draw from?

This happens in a lot more fields than you would think. I'm in the final semester of a master's program, and my funding/salary the first year came almost entirely from teaching. Having graduate teaching assistants instructing lab sessions is common at most large universities. I hadn't taken an introductory class in this field since 1999, but there I was teaching that material to a bunch of undergrads with essentially no classroom experience (ironically, my time flight instructing helped a lot, but most TA's come in with no teaching background).

I agree that 1500 hours is an arbitrary number, but there has to be a line drawn somewhere. You obviously can't legislate actual "experience", but you can certainly increase the likelihood that an airline pilot will be more capable by implementing a minimum hour requirement. At the very least, accumulating that time ensures that you take the career path seriously and have put some effort into getting to an airline. There are no such guarantees with a 250hr 90-day wonder, which is what some airlines were getting in the hiring boom.
 
Also, I've got to add one more thing:

We look like fools when our colleagues crash aircraft, and then we go on ranting about how higher requirements are bad. We argue among ourselves about how an undergraduate degree isn't necessary. We argue about how hour requirements are a fool errand. We argue about how every roadblock that is put in place is unacceptable, won't accomplish anything, and does nothing but harm us. Instead of clamoring for higher standards, some among us want the standards lowered to the point that flying an airplane is like scoreless soccer.

In this job, there is a score being kept; it is the number of lives us and our colleagues take because of our poor decision making, and for when our skill set is not up to par. It is, in the end, the only score that matters, and anything we can do to put barriers in place to prevent that number from going up is a good thing.

Very well stated!
 
Unlike those many (including myself) who had this idea, instead of standing around bitching, he actually did something about it.
Charlie deserves credit for being one of the people who got that ball rolling.

Thank you, Scott.

I must admit, first and foremost, I cannot say for certain that any of the bulleted ideas of the Remember 3407 Project were exclusively, originally my idea. If anything, inspiration for the 1500/ATP came to me from Scott. The rest rule revisions were something of an extensive history I was not aware of, but there is indeed extensive history of lobbying by ALPA and many others in that field. I also bulleted revision of laws regarding strikes, and federal protection of fatigue programs. I am admittedly unqualified to even attempt to plumb the depths of those points. My only points that I truly to believe to be entirely of my own making were 1) the federally mandated minimum wage for pilots and 2) advertising and sales transparency in airline ticketing, thereby clarifying the presence of regional airlines in the purchase process. (I cannot say with any certainty that even those points have never been stated before, as the 'infinite number of monkeys with an infinite number of typewriters' concept applies more than ever with the Internet in play..)

That said, I took the best ideas I had and balled them together, allowed them for consideration, and then took the finalized list and published it on the internet. I admit I cannot prove (or find, currently) an exact date of publication. If I published them in a web forum (as I believe I did, here) I cannot find that thread- the search won't go back prior to June of 2009. I know that the Remember 3407 Project was in fact up and running (minus the official website) in May of 2009, as I specifically stated as much in a letter to Congressman John Boccieri that I wrote on May 18th, 2009. Fortunately, I was able to locate that letter, and can at the very least substantiate that fact.

While I think my point has been confused by poor communication on my part, let me clarify that I am not suggesting that I am the first pilot in the history of aviation to directly lobby Congress. I actually pulled this trick straight from ALPA's founder. Dave Behnke. Dave Behnke was an avid believer in the political process in improving commercial aviation and the stories related of his doings in 'Flying the Line' motivated my actions.

That said, the inherent problem of ALPA and ALPA PAC in Washington is that they are just that- a PAC. ALPA has lost the will and fervor that comes from the activity of individuals acting in reference to the legislative bodies. It has become bureaucratic and ultimately ineffective. Consider, for example, the many years required to even get the beginnings of Known Crew Member, formerly known as CrewPass, and the decades of ineffective action in regards to rest rule reform. A different approach was required, and simply renewing letter writing by launching a broad spectrum, guerrilla approach to lobbying for those points was entirely my idea. Sitting back and letting the PACs battle it out was the traditional method, but utilizing social media such as web forums, Facebook, and Myspace was my call. IIRC, Doug himself says here often, ALPA official legislative acts rarely accomplish much of anything, and a grass roots effort is almost universally the tool that actually gets things done. ALPA is great at speeches and parades, but what we really needed was to unleash the hordes.

This is true, and he never implied that he did anything other than give the 3407 families a list of concrete proposals, They carried it from there.

In the interest of honesty, I must admit I never directly corresponded with the 3407 Families until after the laws were passed, and then, only to congratulate them on their victory. I had intended to approach them directly, but hesitated. In all honesty, I felt opportunistic as it was leveraging change using the blood of their dead. As I have stated here before, "the sacred inkwell of change" had again been filled, and I believed and still believe that it was up to us to do something with that opportunity. At the time, however, I was reluctant to approach them directly and continued with a letter campaign directed towards the elected officials of anyone willing to write on behalf of the project. Adoption of the principles of the Remember 3407 Project seems self-evident by several news articles where 3407 Families noted that pilots were writing in support of the reform they were suggesting; the letters pilots wrote gave their reforms substance and focus. I cannot,however, be totally certain of that. My best hope is that they adopted the ideas put forward as their own, as my intent was not necessarily to spearhead the legislative effort, but to preemptively write it. As Seggy noted, I was not directly invited to any of the legislative processes. I was left to direct that as best I could indirectly through the press. Success of the communication and implementation of the ideas of the 3407 Project are quantifiable, however, as noted with the implementation of the 'truth in advertisting rules' and the FAA specifically commenting that they would not dictate pay, as that was a matter of the collective bargaining process.

He was also willing to stick his neck out and be quoted on the front page of the Wall Street Journal. Which is more than I would do in my business... Being critical of the biz you work in to the press is often risky behavior.

Thank you, Russ. This, specifically, is more than anything an example of what I did do, and what was my idea. Much as I enjoyed the attention, my willingness to speak to the press and literally put my name on potentially damaging and incendiary statements about Colgan Air and other regional airlines was not without risk. If you Google my name and 'airline', the very first hit you get is this:

"Commuter Airlines: Questions of Safety - WSJ.com
online.wsj.com/article/SB125962778738870517.html
Dec 1, 2009 – Smaller JetBlue Airways requires at least 4,000. Charlie Preusser had 383. Nonetheless, he got a job as a co-pilot two years ago, "and I was ..."

Something I have carried ever-present in my mind is that by exposing myself in the press, I have potentially marked myself to never be hired in the 121 industry again. Given the nature of the Internet and airlines' given distaste for negative media exposure, a Google search of my name during an interview process may be all that will be needed to politely dismiss me for 'unspecified reasons'. Given that my remarks were all published in print in the Washington newspaper, Bloomberg Markets magazine (and internet affiliates) my position, unshielded by official title, will exist forever. In addition to that, I'm also potentially a known collaborator for the PBS Frontline Special 'Flying Cheap', and know from first hand knowledge that at least one former Colgan pilot brave enough to appear in that show was inspired to do so because of me. I haven't spoken to him in some time, but I laud his bravery and hope that the misery rumored to have been visited upon him as a result of his efforts are less than I have heard.

That's the point of what I was doing. ALPA's efforts are steadfast, but they are stale, and the same voice repeated again and again eventually falls on deaf ears. I never intended to do the heavy lifting- something like this was too much for any one man. My intent was to arm the people who believed in the Project with solid ideas, then stand out front so they'd be brave enough to act.

That, really, is the only real, original idea I may have ever had.

The real problem driving the ills of the pilot profession isn't pay, or work rules, or fatigue, or contract issues, or whatnot. Those are all secondary issues. The single, primary, issue underlying all of it isn't even pilot pushing- which is what all those things are.

Ultimately, it comes down to this: PILOTS ARE AFRAID TO ACT WHEN THEY FEAR NEGATIVE REPERCUSSIONS FROM AIRLINE MANAGEMENT.

Being afraid to act is what killed the people on board Colgan 3407. The people that qualified Captain Renslow may have been afraid to act because they didn't want to be the people that marred a career, cost the company money, or failed a deadline. Given my experience with Colgan Air, all of of those are likely. First Officer Shaw is recorded ON THE CVR speaking of her fear to act- she noted that she felt sick, but noted that she wouldn't call out because the company wouldn't allow her to fly home, and she had no money for a hotel. The right answer to that question is repeatedly drilled into our heads time and again. Shaw could have slept in the crew room, if necessary- right? It was good enough the night before. Why not after? Once again, afraid to ask. She took the path of least resistance. You could take it further and say that the company or industry failed to act by paying them adequately to take such actions- because we all know in retrospect that the Colgan 3407 Q-400 operation allowed no margin for financial error, thereby placing the burden on the crews and machines to be perfect- which we know is never the case.

Totalled, these two pilots were either failed by the process or themselves, and their inability to choose to act in order to be rested, fit, and alert on duty created a loss of awareness that precipitated the stall/spin crash sequence.

The underlying idea of the Remember 3407 Project was to not to fix the ills of the industry single handedly. None of the bullets were ever 'magic bullets'. Simply stated, 1500 hours may or may not make up for the training and talent you lack at 250 hours, just as a 250 hour pilot potentially could possess that talent. It was designed to remove the free-for-all of minimum qualified pilots with NO OTHER COURSE OF EMPLOYMENT outside of small aircraft that would be UNWILLING OR TOO SCARED TO ACT. We have raised the cost of new hire pilots- the price of poker has gone up. The end result is that airlines are now scrambling to better incentivise airline employment, all the while indirectly contributing to the greater empowerment of pilots.

.... and an empowered pilot is a pilot that is willing to act. Precious few pilots have the guts to stare down the establishment these days. This is the first step to changing that. The first step to getting on board is to reexamine your attitude to the concept.

One thing is for damned sure- I don't know if the ideas I put forward occurred concurrently, exclusively, originally, or whatnot. What I do know for certain is that I was one of the first and very few pilots willing to stand up on the hill and wave the flag with the enemy hordes staring me down and yell '"Follow me!"

Pilots are leaders. We fly the airplane, we do not let the airplane fly us. Why on earth would we let external circumstances fly us?

That's my stance on the matter, full and complete. You'll have to excuse me if I continue to call it 'my idea'. I have bet the future of my career on the concept, so I'll be damned if I call it anything else.

Nobody else was doing anything to get the masses involved, and people stopped following ALPA a long time ago.

So I'll be out front, waving the flag, defending the idea. It's a sound one, and while the price of poker keeps going up on the rest of the world and people will dicker about what to do, I already know what to do. I've been 'all in' since day one.

I will now entertain your jeering and arm-chair quarterbacking.
 
Also, I've got to add one more thing:

We look like fools when our colleagues crash aircraft, and then we go on ranting about how higher requirements are bad. We argue among ourselves about how an undergraduate degree isn't necessary. We argue about how hour requirements are a fool errand. We argue about how every roadblock that is put in place is unacceptable, won't accomplish anything, and does nothing but harm us. Instead of clamoring for higher standards, some among us want the standards lowered to the point that flying an airplane is like scoreless soccer.

In this job, there is a score being kept; it is the number of lives us and our colleagues take because of our poor decision making, and for when our skill set is not up to par. It is, in the end, the only score that matters, and anything we can do to put barriers in place to prevent that number from going up is a good thing.

I love you man. You will forever be awesome in my book.

No homo.
 
I will now entertain your jeering and arm-chair quarterbacking.

I don't mean to jeer or arm-chair quarterback. I'm just wondering about some differences between what you said a couple of pages ago and now:

Now:
I must admit, first and foremost, I cannot say for certain that any of the bulleted ideas of the Remember 3407 Project were exclusively, originally my idea.

Earlier:
[in regard to 1500 hour rule] Support it? It was my idea.

Now:
My only points that I truly to believe to be entirely of my own making were 1) the federally mandated minimum wage for pilots and 2) advertising and sales transparency in airline ticketing, thereby clarifying the presence of regional airlines in the purchase process.

Earlier:
It was my Remember 3407 Project that started the whole ball rolling. The ATP requirement, new rest rules, everything- starting the push for those was entirely my idea.

I greatly respect the initiative you took with your website and your willingness to be named in the WSJ article, but coming on here with statements of how this was "entirely [your] idea" does not do anything for your credibility.





 
I don't mean to jeer or arm-chair quarterback. I'm just wondering about some differences between what you said a couple of pages ago and now:

Now:


Earlier:


Now:


Earlier:


I greatly respect the initiative you took with your website and your willingness to be named in the WSJ article, but coming on here with statements of how this was "entirely [your] idea" does not do anything for your credibility.







Sometimes we have to review past statements for accuracy after we cool off a bit. I take responsibility for my previous statements and have redacted myself where necessary. Beyond that, as one of the most ardent, outspoken, and publicly visible supporters of the ideas present, I'm going to call it mine as far as I can get away with it. I've done figuratively everything short of tattoo it across my forehead to get the point across of the merit and validity of the idea. Sometimes people whining about things they've done nothing about pisses you off when you're that invested.

Perhaps in the process of defending the idea against those who have done little or nothing at all, I came to view it as 'mine' because I was forced to repeatedly write my name on it. I have often times felt as if I were the only one out in the sticks putting forward actionable ideas.

In retrospect, a better statement would have been, "Support it? I was one of the earliest adopters of codifying it and making it a real world change, and I have been ever since. I was on it so fast, it was practically almost my idea."


*shrugs* Mea culpa.
 
I've had an ATP for a few years, and I still don't support it in its current state.

I'm all for an increase in experience in the cockpit, but the 1500 rule is completely arbitrary. Is a guy with 1500 hours flying lines VFR any more prepared for a 121 environment than a 750 hour pilot who's been teaching multi instrument? It's about the type of experience, not the total hours.


Exactly. I've got no dog in this argument, but can someone explain to me how having 1500TT, 1100 of it airship, makes me safer to fly a CRJ than some guy who has 800TT in airplanes with probably 300 multi time from teaching?

Until the routes to ATP minimums are choked down, there are simply too many way's to get to ATP minimums to make that a valid, this is what you have to have requirement that does something for safety.
 
Exactly. I've got no dog in this argument, but can someone explain to me how having 1500TT, 1100 of it airship, makes me safer to fly a CRJ than some guy who has 800TT in airplanes with probably 300 multi time from teaching?

Until the routes to ATP minimums are choked down, there are simply too many way's to get to ATP minimums to make that a valid, this is what you have to have requirement that does something for safety.

Read post #223 above. It's the really long one. All your answers are right there.
 
If I had to do a lazy eight, now, at north of 10,000 hours, I'd probably kill myself dead.

If I had to shoot the VOR 13R at minimums when I had a couple hundred hours, solo, and say, in that Seneca I with questionable engines, probably the same.

Hell I don't know.
 
We definitely should stop comparing ourselves to doctors. They kill waaaaaay more people then pilots could ever dream about. Some studies suggest up to 225,000 people are killed by the medical system every year. This Time article claims up to 7,000 people are killed by poor doctor penmanship a year.

http://www.time.com/time/health/article/0,8599,1578074,00.html

From the article;
"Doctors' sloppy handwriting kills more than 7,000 people annually. It's a shocking statistic, and, according to a July 2006 report from the National Academies of Science's Institute of Medicine (IOM), preventable medication mistakes also injure more than 1.5 million Americans annually."

Maybe they should have a look at changing training requirements. I may not be able to cut a heart open but I can sure as hell write legibly. Even if they made no other fatal mistakes, 7,000 people a year due to bad writing is inexcusable.

Point is, we're all human. Regardless of how much training, hours or sleep we have, as long as people are involved mistakes will happen and those mistakes will unfortunately kill people.
 
If I had to do a lazy eight, now, at north of 10,000 hours, I'd probably kill myself dead.

If I had to shoot the VOR 13R at minimums when I had a couple hundred hours, solo, and say, in that Seneca I with questionable engines, probably the same.

Hell I don't know.

It's all about training and recency of experience for the current job you are in. How quickly you can get up to speed in your current job is where the past experience (both in time and breadth of experience) comes into play. Last year I had an ex F16 guy on the jumpseat who had just finished new hire ground school at a regional and was headed home for a few days. We flew a fairly normal MTV Visual Circle 33 into DCA and he was absolutely mind blown about the complexity and speed of the arrival and approach. This is a guy who had 3000 hours of F16 time, much of it deployed in a combat environment. And yet, here he was, with the same look of absolute bewilderment that I've seen on 300 hour newbies. The major difference between this guy and them? Give him 200 hours in the airplane and he'll be much farther along in gaining competency and skill than they will. THAT'S where the past experience part helps.
 
This is why we can't have nice things. Funny thing is, I bet people on here would walk that wet, drunken kid's resume in 10 times before thinking about doing the same for you.... You must have taken a lot of jhugz negative networking advice! (Sorry jhugz I still love you. Didn't mean to pull you in this poop show!)

Then why did you?
 
The solution, as has been stated multiple times throughout this post is to solve these problems at each step of the process. Mandate better initial pilot training, from the PPL level onward. Ensure that DEs are doing their job and not just in sweetheart deals with various training academies.

At the PPL level - not sure that I totally agree. Being at that end of the training spectrum - I'm not training folks that will likely go on to fly for an airline. Either because they plan to fly for recreation/personal business, or they are retired from an airline in the first place. Having flexibility to tailor instruction to the strengths and weaknesses of the individual student is something that I think works well. It is hard to "mandate better initial pilot training" while still being able to adapt training to what the student will need.
 
A lot of this comes down to experience not just in the airplane, but in decision making. If you only fly on the third Tuesday of the month when it's a mild and sunny day, your decision making skills will suffer.

Add to that the pressure often made on pilots to make the wrong decision- because it's convenient for others. The regionals get pilots young, weak, and financially disadvantaged and use that to push them.

Ultimately, raising requirements will raise safety not only because of pilot aircraft proficiency, but because they know they have other options when people pushing paper start trying to push pilots.

If you're not prepared to pack up your kit bag and walk away from a loaded aircraft when you know somebody is crossing a line they should not, you don't belong in this profession. If Shaw or Renslow had done that, maybe we wouldn't even be having this discussion.
 
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