148TH FW MNANG

Finny

Finny

Well-Known Member
Hello All,

I'm seriously considering putting in a packet for a F-16 UPT slot with the 148th here in Duluth, MN. I do have some questions and if any of you could help out I'd sincerely appreciate it.

Some background: I'm 26 with around 1300TT. Currently I am employed as a King Air FO at a 135 on demand charter company in Minneapolis. I'm also a SGT with the 34th ID Band in the MNARNG with a great military record, along with many leadership accomplishments. Along with flying full time and my guard commitments, I am also a full time student working on finishing my bachelor's degree in business management online and will be graduating in Apr. 2016. Along with graduating in Apr of 2016, that is when my contract with the MNARNG will be up. I'm trying to make sure that if I am lucky enough to get an UPT slot, that I will not have a break in service.

The big question I have is it even worth it to apply for an UPT slot without my degree? How quickly are most units looking for candidates to ship out for training? By the time I'll have my degree finished I'll be 28, which is their stated cut off age for applying at the 148th.

Also, are there any good study materials that you would recommend looking into for the AFOQT test and the interview board itself? I've read through many forums over at baseops.net, but I would love any semi official publications to study from.

They stated outright in the application that they do not do tours during the application window. Is there any other way you would suggest to set myself apart from the other candidates that will be applying?

Finally, if you have any other general advice to give about military flying, especially in the guard side, I would appreciate it. I know I'm coming at this a little late in the game, but I've always had the dream of flying for the military. Any help would be appreciated!

Thanks guys!
 
You're really limiting yourself if you're going to be 27 and 1/2 when you apply. Most units like to have a guy hired by 27.
 
Actually I've got some time, and I'll give it to prior service.

There are a few problems.

1. Age, you need to start UPT by 30, this wasn't always the case, but waivers are becoming rare, especially in a situation when another peg could fit in the hole i.e. when hiring someone to go to UPT.

2. The "little desire shown" effect. Fighter units want guys that are foaming at the mouth to fly a fighter, and have been for years. Most guys I know that wanted to fly F-16s applied at literally every F-16 unit in the country. Your original post reads at "that would be kinda cool or nice to do, and hey I'm in Minnesota so I guess I'll try these guys." I wouldn't even hire someone like to fly in the heavy community. The commitments that you will have to make to the squadron will be vast and time consuming.

3. You only have one chance to go through a board and get hired (see #1). Most people do not get hired on their first go around. I wanted to fly Herks more than anything else on earth and applied to every Herk unit East of the Mississippi. I sent somewhere in the neighborhood of 16 packages, got invited to interview at 8 to 10 or so units. Of the units I interviewed at, I got a job offer from 2. Those are the kind of odds you are facing, and that was for heavy units, some of which were in the middle of nowhere. Your odds will be much worse at a fighter unit in a populated area that people actually want to live in.

4. The AFOQT is not hard. It's your standard, standardized BS, fill in the circle test questions style that you've been taking since middle school. Just study and you'll be fine.

5. Be open to other opportunities if flying in the military is truly a commitment you want to make.

I do not mean to discourage you with those points, but just to make you realize the mountain you'll have to climb to get where you want to go. I have a ton of suggestions where that came from, and am always happy to entertain questions about getting hired at a guard/reserve unit. Start reading baseops and seeing what else you need to do, because it ain't as simple as taking the AFOQT, throwing the package in and getting the "we want you to come fly with us" phone call.

Also user @atracnitrix was recently hired at the very same unit you are desiring to fly at, and since he was given so much advice ;) in the last thread he started, maybe he would be willing to pay it forward, and take some time to talk to you.
 
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I don't know about the OTS style package you are looking to submit, or that process. That said I know a fair amount of guys that have or are in the process of getting off active duty from our community (navy Hornets/super hornets) and getting into various guard units around the country (not just fighter units). Overall impression I have is that there is a significant "rush" process involved. I don't know how different that is from that for a guy off the street (or without significant military flying experience) but most of the guys I have known to do it went to lengths to get quality face time with their desired unit during drill periods, and it was a longish process. Granted there was a navy to USAF transition in there which complicates the timeline but that was my take. I'll defer to the guard guys here if that is out to lunch or inaccurate for this scenario.
 
///AMG said:
I don't know about the OTS style package you are looking to submit, or that process. That said I know a fair amount of guys that have or are in the process of getting off active duty from our community (navy Hornets/super hornets) and getting into various guard units around the country (not just fighter units). Overall impression I have is that there is a significant "rush" process involved. I don't know how different that is from that for a guy off the street (or without significant military flying experience) but most of the guys I have known to do it went to lengths to get quality face time with their desired unit during drill periods, and it was a longish process. Granted there was a navy to USAF transition in there which complicates the timeline but that was my take. I'll defer to the guard guys here if that is out to lunch or inaccurate for this scenario.
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I think this is true for prior rated guys. A flying squadron can be a very intimidating place to a non prior person (like myself when I was getting hired). A prior service rated flyer has access to the global/DSN and can easily correspond with a POC before they ever set foot in the place. They already know how a flying squadron works even if it's a different airframe or mission. For prior service military that is not a flyer coming to hang out is still important as is already knowing how the military works in a general sense and be able to relate and talk on some level. As a non prior I did go "hang out" at units but it was pretty awkward especially since I was a 23 year old CFI. It's much easier to throw beers back if you are already equals as would be the case with guys leaving active duty. Oddly enough the units that I visited as many times as possible did not hire me. I actually got hired where I just cold called and sent a package. There isn't a magic formula and your mileage may vary. The key to visiting units no matter what your situations is pretty much to not be a •, don't act like you own the place or know what's going on, dress well, be humble etc etc all the obvious stuff when you're going out to get any job.
 
Yeah, it's always hard to convey attitude online in print. I'm more trying to be realistic in my expectations in that I'm coming into this process at 26 1/2 years old than as a young guy with years to try to get a flight slot. Right now I'm trying to see if applying would even be worth while. Obviously it is a TON of work and once I commit to the process it will not be at an attitude level of, "Boy F-16s are neat! I want to go pew pew up in Duluth!" I didn't become a NCO in the army by being a crappy soldier and wouldn't want waste anyone's time if I wasn't 110% investing in being an officer in the USAF.

I did have a good conversation with the pilot recruiter at the 148th today. She said I can still apply without the 4 year degree, I just need to get a memorandum from my school stating my graduation date, academic process etc. She was very friendly and helpful, and I came away from the conversation with much of the information I needed.

Now I think it's going to be the sit down and talk with the wife about what the process would entail, how long I'll be away from home, etc etc. That's going to be the limiting factor in my decision making process.

@Soku39, I appreciate the extra time you spent to write that info out. Beers on me if you're ever in Minnesota.

I did PM @atracnitrix. If you have anything else to add to the forum I'll be all ears!
 
Finny said:
I didn't become a NCO in the army by being a crappy soldier and wouldn't want waste anyone's time if I wasn't 110% investing in being an officer in the USAF.
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I don't know how the Army works, but in the USN, being an "NCO" (or in our parlance a Petty Officer, or in more senior form, Leading Petty Officer) doesn't really tell me much about the person. There are a lot of rates (our term for MOS) where you basically just promote through E-5 by fogging a mirror and doing satisfactorily on the advancement exam. Similar to officer promotions through O-3 one could probably say. E-6/First Class Petty Officer is generally a more discerning pay grade for us, but I have known plenty of those too who were absolute no loads who couldn't lead a dog down a sidewalk. My point being that you need to impart the board with quantitative and qualitative examples of why you are a standout, not just "I made NCO so I meet the bar to be an officer".....that would be an inaccurate statement for a lot of folks out there. Not hating on the bread and butter of our enlisted leadership, just that there are sometimes service differences in what is expected of a particular pay grade, and in any pay grade, not all are equal.
 
///AMG said:
I don't know how the Army works, but in the USN, being an "NCO" (or in our parlance a Petty Officer, or in more senior form, Leading Petty Officer) doesn't really tell me much about the person. There are a lot of rates (our term for MOS) where you basically just promote through E-5 by fogging a mirror and doing satisfactorily on the advancement exam. Similar to officer promotions through O-3 one could probably say. E-6/First Class Petty Officer is generally a more discerning pay grade for us, but I have known plenty of those too who were absolute no loads who couldn't lead a dog down a sidewalk. My point being that you need to impart the board with quantitative and qualitative examples of why you are a standout, not just "I made NCO so I meet the bar to be an officer".....that would be an inaccurate statement for a lot of folks out there. Not hating on the bread and butter of our enlisted leadership, just that there are sometimes service differences in what is expected of a particular pay grade, and in any pay grade, not all are equal.
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You're saying there are crappy NCOs out there?! What?! :-)

Yeah I hear ya, but I did work for my rank, embrace the responsibility I have for the soldiers underneath me, and constantly try to push myself to be a better trainer for them and learn more from the NCOs above me. I totally get where you're coming from and I'm sure you don't want to read through my resume anymore than I want to type it out on an open forum. I love flying and I love serving my country, just trying to see if there is a snowball's chance in hell that I can merge these two passions.
 
@Finny Alright cool, I was not in any way meaning to talk down to you. There are probably 100s of subtleties that don't come through posting on a message board. Good on you for going out and getting the info already. Protip; if you do get a UPT slot, take your wife with you for the whole thing. For a fighter dude its like 3 years of training away from home, straight through. No ability to take leave the entire time.

@///AMG Yes, that's exactly what we're looking for when senior 0-3s/0-4s come in to meet us/hangout. Just like interviewing at Delta or something else, no one is doubting that the guy/gal can fly the airplane safely, at that point it's all about fit in the squadron etc etc. I should have said earlier, but living locally/wanting to relocate and not commute to the squadron is like the hugest +1 there is. Especially when it comes to flexibility filling the schedule, short notice TDYs, getting beans done etc. Like living locally is huge. Also I do not think at @Finny was trying to say that since he was an NCO he was deserving of a UPT slot, rather that he was using that to show that he was indeed serious about this and had already done prior research and understood the implications/work that would have to go into it, since I came at him from an initial attitude of "uh bro, flying an F-16 on the weekend is not just something sorta neat that you can waltz into" kinda thing. All is good I think.
 
Wait, so is it or is it not neat to fly a F-16 on the weekend...? I'm the Army after all, we get easily confused.
 
@Soku39 That's one of the reasons I'm really hesitant to even begin the process is I know my wife wouldn't enjoy following me around and being an Air Force wife. She's in the army as well and has a very successful life both on the civilian side and the ARNG side that would be torpedoed if she were to follow me around for 3 years. One of the other huge downfalls of looking into the process at 26. Getting older and having responsibility can be a drag.
 
Yeah, I don't think that is what Finny was saying either......but I thought, since he mentioned it, it was worth saying that he should sell himself beyond the caps in his resume......which I'm sure he would have done anyway :)

I've dealt with a few commissioning packages for Sailors, and while maybe not the exact same process (Active Enlisted to Active Officer commissioning program), I do know that the guys that made it really had to demonstrate in a meaningful way how above and beyond the standard expectations of their paygrade/position they were. Which is maybe a double standard because when I applied, as a non-prior off the street, I wasn't exactly god's gift to the community or well-roundedness.......I just got good grades in college and had a good ASTB score. Whatever though, point being that we expect the best out of our Sailors/Marines/Airmen/Soldiers who we nominate for commissioning programs. So #1 be that guy (which it sounds like he is), and #2 work hard to document it and present that to the board.
 
Ha, he's got jokes! Alright well good luck, if you have another questions shoot a PM there are other reserve and guard guys on here that are willing to help. Keep in mind, I am but a lowly 1 Lt that has only been out of the schoolhouse and flying operationally for a year. The only reason I even sat on the last two hiring boards is because the old heads want the perspective of someone that recently went through all the training etc and I just happen to be the guy that got back most recently. I am definitely not involved in any of the final decision making or anything like that. Most of my observations and opinions are through the lens of my own experience getting hired which at this point is 4 years old and getting kinda dated, as well as making it through training, which isn't quite as dated. Now adays I'm juggling the junior regional FO thing, with the junior Herk copilot thing. My life is nothing but pain, haha.
 
I appreciate it guys, thanks for the time on a Tuesday night setting a lowly buck sergeant straight. If either of you end up in Minnesota shoot me a PM, first round is on me. The other 5 will be on you guys with your fancy O-something pay grades!
 
Finny said:
@Soku39 That's one of the reasons I'm really hesitant to even begin the process is I know my wife wouldn't enjoy following me around and being an Air Force wife. She's in the army as well and has a very successful life both on the civilian side and the ARNG side that would be torpedoed if she were to follow me around for 3 years. One of the other huge downfalls of looking into the process at 26. Getting older and having responsibility can be a drag.
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Yeah, that is a tough position. I have known folks who have made it work, and some that haven't. You know your wife better than any of us, and if she can handle it, then do it. My wife (girlfriend and then fiancee for most of this period) did not live with me while I was in flight school. She was in grad school 2000 miles away, and we saw each other during the holidays or when she had time free to come down and visit during university vacation periods. It worked for us, but maybe not for everyone. Since then and us starting to live together and get married, she has managed to develop her own career, through 3 PCS moves to very different geographic locations. Whether that can work for your wife obviously depends on what field she is in, and how important it is to her. For my wife, it was and is very important to her, and having a significant second income in the household is also a big bonus. That said, we were fortunate in those 3 moves to live in or near major cities which helped a lot.
 
Finny said:
I appreciate it guys, thanks for the time on a Tuesday night setting a lowly buck sergeant straight. If either of you end up in Minnesota shoot me a PM, first round is on me. The other 5 will be on you guys with your fancy O-something pay grades!
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I'm sure you have a lot of things straight by now........but glad we can offer any helpful advice at least
 
///AMG said:
For my wife, it was and is very important to her, and having a significant second income in the household is also a big bonus. That said, we were fortunate in those 3 moves to live in or near major cities which helped a lot.
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I just heard from your detailer that you're PCSing to El Centro.
 
Finny said:
I appreciate it guys, thanks for the time on a Tuesday night setting a lowly buck sergeant straight. If either of you end up in Minnesota shoot me a PM, first round is on me. The other 5 will be on you guys with your fancy O-something pay grades!
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Hey man, I literally just finished the process (AFOQT, TBAS, interviewing, OTS) and am at UPT now. My info would be about as current as there is and I got a lot of help. Am definitely willing to answer any questions I can.
 
EvanD15 said:
Hey man, I literally just finished the process (AFOQT, TBAS, interviewing, OTS) and am at UPT now. My info would be about as current as there is and I got a lot of help. Am definitely willing to answer any questions I can.
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What are you going to be hopefully flying?
 
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