141 flying and 61 ground... need help

K

KevinT

New Member
I am currently flying using a 141 syllabus. it's my instrument rating so i'm doing 4 cross countries and one of them that meets the 250 mile enroute requirement. which is the only one you need for 141. the part 61 flying requires 50 hours cross country time!! total cross country not just instrument cross countries. so total from when I got my private and everything I have 19.9 hours and will have roughly 25 hours when i'm done with this last cross country. since my "ground" which is through utah valley state college (all online) is only a part 61 school, I have been reading through the book and the senior instructor puts it down as a home study course so I can use it for part 141 I guess. I write in how many hours it takes to get through each lesson in the ground syllabus on my own.

My question is, can I fly part 141 and just do this cross country and be done with it? or do I HAVE to spend all that time and money for another 25 hours cross country in order to get my intrument rating.



also, on a side note. to get your commercial you need 55 hours cross country, is that true with 141 or 61? so would I have to get this cross country time no matter what?? if I do i'll just do it now, if I don't I'd rather not fly around for the hell of it and take forever to get my ratings.



I know this is a little hard to understand. just post up if you have any questions i'll do my best to explain. thanks for all the help in advance!
 
Very complex question Kevin!

Are you currently flying at a Part 141 school, and are u currently enrolled in the Part 141 Instrument rating course?

If so, you're going to refer to your course's TCO (Training Course Outline).

By the way, some Senior Instructor can't just "Put it down" as home study so that it will "count" as Part 141 . . .
 
mtsu_av8er said:
Very complex question Kevin!

. .
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so much so that I don't understand what's going on here.

The ground school has to be part of the approved 141 program, why would you be training part 61 but using a 141 TCO?
 
KevinT said:
I am currently flying using a 141 syllabus.

My question is, can I fly part 141 and just do this cross country and be done with it?
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Complex, indeed. Flying with a 141 syllabus is one thing . . . but you never said whether or not you were actually ENROLLED in a 141 program. Using the syllabus isn't enough - you have to enroll in an approved training program that has (as MTSU mentioned) a TCO (Training Course Outline). That TCO will define what content, minimum time, and completion standards are required for both flight and ground portions of your training. A home study course won't cut it, though you can get partial credit for previously completed training.

Some quick ways to determine if you're enrolled in an approved program: you've recieved an enrollment certificate that had to be signed for, the school has a 141 authorization for your course (instrument airplane) posted on the wall, your training activities and your performance are recorded in official records beyond your logbook, and you've been given an approved syllabus. For the nitty gritty details, look at part 141 in the FARs.

If you figure out that you're not enrolled in an approved 141 course, it doesn't matter what syllabus you use, you still have to meet 61 requirements.

Tailwinds!
 
PhotoPilot said:
A home study course won't cut it, though you can get partial credit for previously completed training.
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Ahhh. Part141.77 This one is my favorite. Stupid prior schools losing faa approval and me getting hosed...Sorry, I'm done
 
Philip said:
and don't forget if attendance to class is compulsory and missed days have to be made up.
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That sounds more like a college thing than a 141 thing . . . :D

And I feel your pain, Slowandlow!
 
PhotoPilot said:
That sounds more like a college thing than a 141 thing . . . :D

And I feel your pain, Slowandlow!
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i always thought it WAS a 141 thing, since the ground school is part of the approved course, all content must be completed.

or so UND would have us believe :D
 
It's true that all ground lessons must be completed to at least the minimum standard, but attendance policy isn't addressed in 141. My guess is that UND doesn't want to deal with providing make-up lessons to all of the students who skipped class last Thursday.

When I was teaching the instrument ground school at WMU, students who were unable to attend a class had to complete an identical lesson with an assigned instructor to meet the 141 requirement. As long as the approved ground content is completed - one way or another - the attendance policy would be up to the provider.
 
PhotoPilot said:
It's true that all ground lessons must be completed to at least the minimum standard, but attendance policy isn't addressed in 141. My guess is that UND doesn't want to deal with providing make-up lessons to all of the students who skipped class last Thursday.

When I was teaching the instrument ground school at WMU, students who were unable to attend a class had to complete an identical lesson with an assigned instructor to meet the 141 requirement. As long as the approved ground content is completed - one way or another - the attendance policy would be up to the provider.
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Well, then more or less attendance would be required, or the student would understand that a missed class would require a makup lesson, which seems like a quick way to figure out exactly what the heck this ground school is.
 
Except that he already knows his ground school is part 61, even though it's through a college. In my mind, the question is: According to the flight school's TCO, how much of the part 61 on-line ground school from another institution could legally count toward the part 141 requirements?
 
I am in an approved 141 school. i'm using the jeppesen syllabus and everything is recorded and graded in a fold-out folder thing. same as when I got my PPL. the flying is at a local FBO that is a 141 school.

the ground course i'm taking is from an online school. through utah valley state college, thus it's ALL online. they are a part 61 school though.

I talked with the instructors today and what i'm doing is reading the corresponding chapters for the lessons outlines in the syllabus and marking down the date and how many hours it took me to read through it(been doing that since I started). the 141 school I go to is going to try and make up some tests, like ground stage checks and have me take them quick so that it can be documented that I known the material and passed their tests. that's how i'm gonna try and get around the useless 25 hours of vsf cross country that I need to make 50 total hours. basically the 61 ground will just be more knowledge for me and knock out some credits for my degree.




what's everyone think about that?
 
KevinT said:
what's everyone think about that?
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If it's a good ground school and the course work can be legally swung according to the 141 school's TCO, good on ya! I'm all for efficiency and saving money/time as long as your knowledge and skill base don't suffer.

Sounds like a good deal! :)
 
yeah +1 for saving money.. the time I don't care as long as I know my stuff. but I consider myself a good pilot. I work line service so I see the not so good pilots come and go all day long. "what's your active" at an uncontrolled airport... duh. or the guys that taxi through the sinkhole laiden grass instead of using the paved taxiways.. aaanyways...

hope it works, otherwise i'll have to get a list of where everyone's from and come visit some people from the forum. but i'd rather not spend over 25 hours flying cross countries just so I can get my Instument rating.... I think it's really stupid you need that much cross country time. especially since i'd need to do it all VFR which wouldn't help in my training for ifr stuff at all!
 
PhotoPilot said:
Except that he already knows his ground school is part 61, even though it's through a college. In my mind, the question is: According to the flight school's TCO, how much of the part 61 on-line ground school from another institution could legally count toward the part 141 requirements?
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the point is, does he know for certain it's a part 61 ground school?
 
PhotoPilot said:
He sounds pretty sure to me!
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it's not really clear on their website (utah valey) but it looks like they have approved 141 schools that you can fly at and take the courses via the web, and likewise the college course is required for the 141 programs it looks like on the schools page, tough to say.

i did find this little tidbit on NAFI

some dude, Master CFI
Orem UT
E-mail:
some dude recently earned his Master Instructor designation. Greg is a flight instructor specializing in instrument and CFI training with the Aviation Science Department of Utah Valley State College, a Part 141 flight school at Provo Municipal Airport (PVU). He also serves with AOPA's Airport Support Network.
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http://www.nafinet.org/news/2005%20-%2002_28%20-%20February%20Master%20Instructors.html
 
KevinT said:
I think it's really stupid you need that much cross country time. especially since i'd need to do it all VFR which wouldn't help in my training for ifr stuff at all!
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Interesting, you don't even have 50 hours of cross country time and think you know enough about flying to think it's stupid. Hmmm....

The theory of requiring less experience in a 141 program is that the FAA thinks that the education received in a structured, supervised program that is serially aimed at putting you into a career path where you are continually being monitored and supervised before you are allowed to do much of anything on your own makes up for the lack of experience you have by not doing more cross countries.
 
I don't think it's stupid to have that much cross country time, I think it's stupid you need 50 hours of cross country time (which you'd have to do vfr) in order to get your instrument rating. so if the student wanted to get his/her instrument rating they would need to fly around for 25 hours in my case just to be able to take the INSTRUMENT stage check and continue on from there.

if the student is going into their commercial right away then they can get enrolled in that course and start those cross country flights and they will count towards the instrument time you need too. which is great because most people will have the 50 hours by then and you need 55 for commercial anyways.


the point was, it's dumb to fly so many hours of vfr cross countries if your low on CC time in order to get your instrument rating.
 
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