135 IFR to airport with no weather or INOP weather

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Vapor Lock

Well-Known Member
Under 135 can I file IFR to an airport with no available weather on the field? I know I can't conduct terminal IFR procedures there so no approaches but I see no reason I can't file if the area forecast suggests I can get in VFR. I have done this with other operators many times but this operator claims it's not doable. Thoughts...
 
Vapor Lock said:
Under 135 can I file IFR to an airport with no available weather on the field? I know I can't conduct terminal IFR procedures there so no approaches but I see no reason I can't file if the area forecast suggests I can get in VFR. I have done this with other operators many times but this operator claims it's not doable. Thoughts...
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Under our OPSPECS, our company can NOT do it IFR. Only VFR. I believe most (if not all) 135 companies have the same rule.

That said there are ways to get around it according to our POI. If you file to an airport that DOES have weather, and use you "intended" airport as a waypoint, If the weather is good once you get to your waypoint, cancel IFR and divert. Otherwise continue to your filed destination.
 
Check out information on "Eligible On-Demand." I think it's OpSpec A057... I'll see if I can dig anything up.
 
Fly_Unity said:
Under our OPSPECS, our company can NOT do it IFR. Only VFR. I believe most (if not all) 135 companies have the same rule.

That said there are ways to get around it according to our POI. If you file to an airport that DOES have weather, and use you "intended" airport as a waypoint, If the weather is good once you get to your waypoint, cancel IFR and divert. Otherwise continue to your filed destination.
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What OPSPEC are you referring to?
 
C150J said:
A057.

Unless your operator has it, you cannot "Conduct 'eligible on-demand operations' as defined in and in accordance with 14 CFR Section 135.4."
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No we don't have that one. We are scheduled anyway. Still don't see anything that requires weather at your destination to depart somewhere else IFR
 
Vapor Lock said:
Still don't see anything that requires weather at your destination to depart somewhere else IFR
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Now I'm confused:). Here's my logic:


§135.213Weather reports and forecasts.
–(a) Whenever a person operating an aircraft under
this part is required to use a weather report or
forecast, that person shall use that of the U.S.
National Weather Service, a source approved by the
U.S. National Weather Service, or a source
approved by the Administrator. However, for
operations under VFR, the pilot in command may, if
such a report is not available, use weather
information based on that pilot's own observations or
on those of other persons competent to supply
appropriate observations.

To me, this indicates that the only operations where you DO NOT need your destination's weather report are:
- VFR


135.213

•(b) For the purposes of paragraph (a) of this section,
weather observations made and furnished to pilots to
conduct IFR operations at an airport must be taken at
the airport where those IFR operations are conducted,
unless the Administrator issues operations
specifications allowing the use of weather observations
taken at a location not at the airport where the IFR
operations are conducted. The Administrator issues
such operations specifications when, after investigation
by the U.S. National Weather Service and the
certificate-holding district office, it is found that the
standards of safety for that operation would allow the
deviation from this paragraph for a particular operation
for which an air carrier operating certificate or operating
certificate has been issued.

To me, this indicates that you need A057 if you're going to conduct IFR operations to a destination without approved weather.

Lastly, you have 135.219:

§135.219IFR: Destination airport weather
minimums.
–No person may take off an aircraft under IFR or
begin an IFR or over-the-top operation unless the
latest weather reports or forecasts, or any
combination of them, indicate that weather
conditions at the estimated time of arrival at the next
airport of intended landing will be at or above
authorized IFR landing minimums.


So to me, the FARs (not specifying scheduled vs. unscheduled) explain that you need destination weather unless you're VFR or have A057. Otherwise, you're not in compliance with 135.219. I certainly could be wrong, but that's how I'm interpreting the regs.

I don't see any reference to IMC operations, just IFR... maybe I'm wrong, but this tells me that, even if it's CAVOK, you need weather at the airport indicating such if you're on an IFR plan (unless you have A057).

Looking forward to some other opinions!
 
All of this talks about terminal IFR procedures at the destination. I'm talking about filing and departing IFR to a destination without weather available and conducting the terminal procedures VFR. So no approaches but area forecast has to say you can get low enough to cancel. We just had to have an alternate in case we could not get low enough. What's wrong with that. It's basically the same as filing to a fix and then proceeding VFR (which assumes you will be able to cancel and continue VFR) to your destination only the airport itself is the fix.
 
Vapor Lock said:
All of this talks about terminal IFR procedures at the destination. I'm talking about filing and departing IFR to a destination without weather available and conducting the terminal procedures VFR. So no approaches but area forecast has to say you can get low enough to cancel. We just had to have an alternate in case we could not get low enough. What's wrong with that. It's basically the same as filing to a fix and then proceeding VFR (which assumes you will be able to cancel and continue VFR) to your destination only the airport itself is the fix.
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I certainly understand your argument. Let me play the devil's advocate:

- How can you determine runway performance without weather (wind/temp)?
- How can you determine altitude above terrain in the terminal environment without a local altimeter setting?

I would also like to hear other's opinions on IFR vs. IMC and VFR vs. VMC. If the guidance intentionally distinguishes between the two, then any visual procedure is still considered an IFR maneuver, therefore further reinforcing the requirement to have destination weather.

OpsSpecs are also restrictive when it comes to visual approaches at non-towered airports (no less than 10nm and positive comms), so I'm under the impression that, unless you have A057 or destination weather, that you can't go. I *think* it has less to do with visually flying to the field (there wouldn't be VFR part 135 if that was the case) and more to do with performance, flight locating, etc. I believe that A057 allows the FAA to determine the risk involved with such a mission and bless it if there's a nearby weather-reporting airport (e.g., PHL if PNE's weather goes down).
 
C150J said:
I certainly understand your argument. Let me play the devil's advocate:

- How can you determine runway performance without weather (wind/temp)?
- How can you determine altitude above terrain in the terminal environment without a local altimeter setting?

I would also like to hear other's opinions on IFR vs. IMC and VFR vs. VMC. If the guidance intentionally distinguishes between the two, then any visual procedure is still considered an IFR maneuver, therefore further reinforcing the requirement to have destination weather.

OpsSpecs are also restrictive when it comes to visual approaches at non-towered airports (no less than 10nm and positive comms), so I'm under the impression that, unless you have A057 or destination weather, that you can't go. I *think* it has less to do with visually flying to the field (there wouldn't be VFR part 135 if that was the case) and more to do with performance, flight locating, etc. I believe that A057 allows the FAA to determine the risk involved with such a mission and bless it if there's a nearby weather-reporting airport (e.g., PHL if PNE's weather goes down).
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No, you are correct. You can't file to an airport without weather unless you have A057. We have a few runs that have this problem, and the IFR plans are filed to a nearby airport. When you get close, you can cancel and go in. In fact there's a run where the airport we go to even has approaches, but we can only go there VFR, as there is no weather.
What's funny is how much more unsafe this can make things. Shoot an approach at a nearby airport, then scud run VFR to the actual destination(legal) rather than just shoot the perfectly good approach.(illegal)
 
Vapor Lock said:
All of this talks about terminal IFR procedures at the destination. I'm talking about filing and departing IFR to a destination without weather available and conducting the terminal procedures VFR. So no approaches but area forecast has to say you can get low enough to cancel. We just had to have an alternate in case we could not get low enough. What's wrong with that. It's basically the same as filing to a fix and then proceeding VFR (which assumes you will be able to cancel and continue VFR) to your destination only the airport itself is the fix.
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Terminal operations refers to both the arrival and the departure. The FAA feels that a 135 PIC can only use experience and the Mark 1 Eyeball AWOS for determining the weather during VFR ops. You can't "pick it up on the ground" either because, as an IFR operation , the C064 (the wx reporting, approach, CTAF, etc.) criteria must be met.

For those who cancel early at the waypoint, how do you comply with the flight locating procedures? Open a VFR flight plan with FSS before you cancel?
 
deadstick said:
Terminal operations refers to both the arrival and the departure. The FAA feels that a 135 PIC can only use experience and the Mark 1 Eyeball AWOS for determining the weather during VFR ops. You can't "pick it up on the ground" either because, as an IFR operation , the C064 (the wx reporting, approach, CTAF, etc.) criteria must be met.

For those who cancel early at the waypoint, how do you comply with the flight locating procedures? Open a VFR flight plan with FSS before you cancel?
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Flight locating can be done through your company. So, I tell dispatch.. or in many cases, they know because it's required.
 
Flight locating is not the issue because we can do that with our own ground personnel. Altimeter setting not required VFR. I see what you are saying about wind and temp but again we all agree we can go VFR so that shouldn't be any more of a limiting factor here. Besides, we are going to be VFR at the destination field anyway. I don't just mean VMC, I do in fact mean VFR. Also, I don't have to be within 10 miles to cancel IFR, i'm in a turboprop. Yes Visual approach is an instrument maneuver, which is not going to be a factor once IFR clearance is canceled. For me to depart a destination I have to determine first that weather reports, or forecasts, or ANY COMBO OF will indicate that the visibility will be at or above that which is required for the approach. Well, can't the area forecast tell me that the weather will be good enough to cancel IFR and go VFR into the terminal area? Now I just need an alternate in case the weather man was wrong. What rule does that break?
 
Vapor Lock said:
Flight locating is not the issue because we can do that with our own ground personnel. Altimeter setting not required VFR. I see what you are saying about wind and temp but again we all agree we can go VFR so that shouldn't be any more of a limiting factor here. Besides, we are going to be VFR at the destination field anyway. I don't just mean VMC, I do in fact mean VFR. Also, I don't have to be within 10 miles to cancel IFR, i'm in a turboprop. Yes Visual approach is an instrument maneuver, which is not going to be a factor once IFR clearance is canceled. For me to depart a destination I have to determine first that weather reports, or forecasts, or ANY COMBO OF will indicate that the visibility will be at or above that which is required for the approach. Well, can't the area forecast tell me that the weather will be good enough to cancel IFR and go VFR into the terminal area? Now I just need an alternate in case the weather man was wrong. What rule does that break?
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You make very reasonable points!

Your initial question asked if you could file to a non-IFR airport (see 135.215 for more information leaning towards "no" unless you have authorization), not cancel and fly the remainder of the flight VFR. Permitted your operation has the OpSpec for VFR procedures, I think you're kosher. We don't have VFR authorization, so I'm not the greatest source on 135 VFR ops.
 
The issue with filing ifr to a field without weather, is how do you know what the vis is, to see if you're legal to shoot the approach?

If you're going VFR, none of this matters.

You file to a nearby airport, then cancel when you get close.
 
C150J said:
You make very reasonable points!

Your initial question asked if you could file to a non-IFR airport (see 135.215 for more information leaning towards "no" unless you have authorization), not cancel and fly the remainder of the flight VFR. Permitted your operation has the OpSpec for VFR procedures, I think you're kosher. We don't have VFR authorization, so I'm not the greatest source on 135 VFR ops.
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Sorry if i was not clear. In the original question I was asking to fly IFR from my departure airport, CANCEL IFR, and continue to destination VFR. Hence..."get in VFR" not VMC. I'll go read 135.215 after I shower.
 
z987k said:
The issue with filing ifr to a field without weather, is how do you know what the vis is, to see if you're legal to shoot the approach?

If you're going VFR, none of this matters.

You file to a nearby airport, then cancel when you get close.
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But I'm not going to shoot the approach. It matters because I will depart IFR.
 
z987k said:
So file to a nearby airport. It doesn't have to make sense. It's the FAA.
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My point is that I still don't see that that is legally necessary. I think I only need weather at the destination airport to commence an instrument approach which I will not be doing because the area forecast indicates that the wx will be above minimums for a visual approach. I read 135.215 btw and it talks about IFR operations at the airport but i'm not doing IFR operations at the airport. Simply filing to a different airport is a whole 'nother can of worms because my pax didn't buy tickets to this other airport and is not approved for scheduled service.
 
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