135 IFR to airport with no weather or INOP weather

[deadstick]

I think I only need weather at the destination airport to commence an instrument approach which I will not be doing because the area forecast indicates that the wx will be above minimums for a visual approach. I read 135.215 btw and it talks about IFR operations at the airport but i'm not doing IFR operations at the airport. Simply filing to a different airport is a whole 'nother can of worms because my pax didn't buy tickets to this other airport and is not approved for scheduled service.

You can't file IFR to that field because you cannot depart in the first place if the weather reports indicate that the weather at the destination will be below mins at your ETA. Without weather reporting, you cannot determine this. Ref: 135.225(g) then 135.225(a)(1).

But I'm not going to shoot the approach. It matters because I will depart IFR.

If there is no weather reporting, you cannot depart IFR either. Ref 135.225(h) and (i) both requiring the weather station in135.225(a)(1).

 

[Vapor Lock]

You can't file IFR to that field because you cannot depart in the first place if the weather reports indicate that the weather at the destination will be below mins at your ETA. Without weather reporting, you cannot determine this. Ref: 135.225(g) then 135.225(a)(1).

If there is no weather reporting, you cannot depart IFR either. Ref 135.225(h) and (i) both requiring the weather station in135.225(a)(1).

Sorry I was not clear again. I will not be departing the field with no weather IFR, I meant I will be departing IFR TO GO TO the field with no weather. Now, lets say the area forecast says 5,000 and 5 for the area. That is above the lowest landing minimums for a visual approach (1,000 and 3) is it not? It's also lower than the mea and mva and all that so I have no doubt I can get below the 5,000 foot clouds and even still a cruise clearance would be an option to get me even lower. Now once I get there I can not initiate an approach without the weather being AT THE FIELD (ASOS)which is why I would cancel IFR and depart out of there VFR as well before picking an IFR up in the air again. clear as mud?

 

[C150J]

Now, lets say the area forecast says 5,000 and 5 for the area.

You make a good argument - and I still could be wrong - but I think A057 is still required. I think the FAA is saying that an area forecast (or neighboring airport's weather) might be sufficient, but they need to bless it with A057. Check out 135.213 again:

135.213

•(b) For the purposes of paragraph (a) of this section,
weather observations made and furnished to pilots to
conduct IFR operations at an airport **must be taken at
the airport where those IFR operations are conducted**,
unless the Administrator issues operations
specifications allowing the use of weather observations
taken at a location not at the airport where the IFR
operations are conducted.


Also, check out OpSpec C077: it defines a visual approach under "Terminal arrival IFR - Visual approach or a Charted Visual Flight Procedure (CVFP)." To me, this is saying that you're still "IFR" when shooting that visual procedure, which I know we're not disputing (just found it interesting).

 

[C150J]

Just re-read the whole discussion. If you have authorization to conduct 135 VFR operations, can you file a composite flight plan? That would alleviate the requirement to have destination weather. Maybe this is not allowed - I'm not well-versed with VFR 135 ops.

 

[juxtapilot]

Just re-read the whole discussion. If you have authorization to conduct 135 VFR operations, can you file a composite flight plan? That would alleviate the requirement to have destination weather. Maybe this is not allowed - I'm not well-versed with VFR 135 ops.

I was thinking this too.. The first half IFR, and second half VFR. Otherwise file to a nearby airport (would need to be in Opspecs) with available weather, and make the airport you're going to a waypoint. That's legal but shady.

 

[deadstick]

Call FSS and try to file a composite (or an ADIZ to fly off shore) flight plan, you could "hear crickets chirping." I've had zero luck with filing either of those.

On another point, one things that has gotten folks in a jam with this operation is the departure. Scenario is that it was 5000/5 when you arrived, but it's 3000/5 when you depart 2 hrs later than planned. You are out there in the sticks and canceled with ATC at 4000 with no problems. Little did you know that below 4000 the VHF coverage is zilch. Just watch out.

 

[Vapor Lock]

You make a good argument - and I still could be wrong - but I think A057 is still required. I think the FAA is saying that an area forecast (or neighboring airport's weather) might be sufficient, but they need to bless it with A057. Check out 135.213 again:

135.213

•(b) For the purposes of paragraph (a) of this section,
weather observations made and furnished to pilots to
conduct IFR operations at an airport **must be taken at
the airport where those IFR operations are conducted**,
unless the Administrator issues operations
specifications allowing the use of weather observations
taken at a location not at the airport where the IFR
operations are conducted.


Also, check out OpSpec C077: it defines a visual approach under "Terminal arrival IFR - Visual approach or a Charted Visual Flight Procedure (CVFP)." To me, this is saying that you're still "IFR" when shooting that visual procedure, which I know we're not disputing (just found it interesting).

Yup, visual approach is and IFR maneuver. If you get cleared for a visual and then cancel you are no longer on a 'visual approach' you are just inbound for landing. Also, 135.213 is addressing IFR operations at an airport. There will be no IFR operations at the airport

 

[Vapor Lock]

I was thinking this too.. The first half IFR, and second half VFR. Otherwise file to a nearby airport (would need to be in Opspecs) with available weather, and make the airport you're going to a waypoint. That's legal but shady.

well, yes, that is possible but what the heck is the difference? In fact that is exactly what this is except the fix where the IFR ends and the VFR begins is the airport itself. How is that different than just any fix 5 miles away?

 

[juxtapilot]

well, yes, that is possible but what the heck is the difference? In fact that is exactly what this is except the fix where the IFR ends and the VFR begins is the airport itself. How is that different than just any fix 5 miles away?

It's because the point you have filed to IFR is an airport without weather. If you file IFR airport to airport you need to be able to complete that flight (and start that flight) legally. If you don't have weather at that airport (terminal weather) how will you know if you can complete the flight or not?

It's simply a technicality...

 

[Vapor Lock]

It's because the point you have filed to IFR is an airport without weather. If you file IFR airport to airport you need to be able to complete that flight (and start that flight) legally. If you don't have weather at that airport (terminal weather) how will you know if you can complete the flight or not?

It's simply a technicality...

Area forecast is a forecast thus should count should it not. Besides, not every airport with an awos publishes a TAF and METARS are a gray area anyway.

 

[Fly_Unity]

Area forecast is a forecast thus should count should it not. Besides, not every airport with an awos publishes a TAF and METARS are a gray area anyway.

I retract my first statement. After doing some digging I started to agree with you. I then consulted our Chief Pilot and he says the Area Forecast is all you need to file. Need AWOS though to shoot an IFR approach. Although you DONT need wx to shoot the visual approach as long as a descent can be made in visual conditions from the MEA. Dont even have to cancel IFR to get in.

 

[Hubbs]

My old company is based at ADS and we used to run into this situation. When the tower was closed the ATIS would (obviously) stop broadcasting, there was an ASOS that would continue to produce METARs but it was not accessible via a frequency, just a phone number. In AO57 we were authorized to use the info at DAL, and add 1 mile to the viz and a couple of hundred (I forget exactly) feet to the DA/MDA for an approach.

 

[Vapor Lock]

My old company is based at ADS and we used to run into this situation. When the tower was closed the ATIS would (obviously) stop broadcasting, there was an ASOS that would continue to produce METARs but it was not accessible via a frequency, just a phone number. In AO57 we were authorized to use the info at DAL, and add 1 mile to the viz and a couple of hundred (I forget exactly) feet to the DA/MDA for an approach.

Yeah, that's a different deal though. I'm not looking to be able to do instrument approaches at this hypothetical airfield.

 

[Vapor Lock]

I retract my first statement. After doing some digging I started to agree with you. I then consulted our Chief Pilot and he says the Area Forecast is all you need to file. Need AWOS though to shoot an IFR approach. Although you DONT need wx to shoot the visual approach as long as a descent can be made in visual conditions from the MEA. Dont even have to cancel IFR to get in.

I kind of agree with that. I'm sure you would never get in trouble for doing a visual approach though it is an instrument maneuver and you would be doing IFR operations at the airfield which you are not allowed to do without weather at the field. So technically illegal but can you imagine the inspector swatting at flies on that one.