womanpilot73
Well-Known Member
manniax said:
Agreed...SFO is wicked expensive. Tho areas in/near SAN also wicked expensive. Allegiant would be a good option as there are affordable areas close by.
121 Operation Recommendations…
- Thread starter avi80r
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Agreed...SFO is wicked expensive. Tho areas in/near SAN also wicked expensive. Allegiant would be a good option as there are affordable areas close by.
Flagship_dxer
Penske Material
Most airlines that people like working for require experience. There is a reason why Pinnacle, ExpressJet, and Republic hire so often and hire many without experience. Each of these companies has some defect that makes it hard for people to stay there long term.
If you want a job at an airline that people like working for you need experience. 6 months at Ryan may be good enough for most of the regionals and some majors. It is depends on when an airline hires, how many and who applies. If you are too picky with limited experience, you will be likely unemployed for a long time as a dispatcher.
ExpressJet should be hiring quite a bit this year. Eagle will likely start hiring end of this year or early next year once AA starts hiring again. Both are in relatively warm winter weather cities.
I would use your connections as much as possible. In six months at Ryan, I would rely on people you knew there to get recommendations and info on hiring at airlines.
Virgin America is known to hire people that match their corporate culture. They do like experience.
The downside of working at Ryan and moving to a regular 121 airline is the fact that a regularly scheduled airline has more flights. Ryan didnt have that many flights per shift and an international flight requires more planning time wise than a domestic flight. At a major or regional domestically, 50-60 flights released and followed is about normal. Some are higher and some are a little lower. Going from planning a few flights to quickly making a decision when planning 60 takes time getting used to for some.
Airlines also have fuel policies. Ryan was pretty lax on fuel because the government footed the bill often and didnt care about fuel costs. Regionals also have extremely weight critical planes. 60 full flights on an ERJ in the winter time or hot summer day can be a real challenge.
In choosing a 121 airline, you need to evaluate your career goals. Many airlines people want to work at will not want to hire someone that is in the ATC hiring pool. Some regionals wont mind but many airlines will see it as hiring someone that will likely be jumping ship soon. Some airlines dont mind high attrition while others want a new hire that will stick around.
Pinnacle might suck but the shelf life of a Pinnacle dispatcher is 6 months or less. If you are planning on jumping ship to ATC, it may not be a bad idea to take a dispatch job in a place where the manager of dispatch is happy to see dispatchers leave the company for bigger and better things. Many managers even at a regional dont want to see dispatchers leaving.
If you determine you want to stay in dispatch, 1-2 years at Pinnacle almost makes you a shoe in at many majors. If you have tail routing/supervisor experience you are even more golden in finding a major job. Many airlines think if someone can survive at Pinnacle for a while, they can more than handle what that airline does.
I let the numbers speak for it on that point. My new hire class at Eagle had 2 Pinnacle, 3 XJT (I was both XJT/9E) and 1 internal crew scheduler hire. The class before mine had 4 Pinnacle out of 12 new hires. There are several others hired at Eagle with Pinnacle experience. AA took three ex-9E dispatchers with around one year of experience. UAL hired at least 6-12 9E people just in 2011-2012 alone, 2 with less than 6 months experience. Delta took one 9E duty manager last year and Fedex has taken a few dispatchers and supervisors. Other regionals and LCCs also take Pinnacle people in large numbers. I was hired by 9E in January 2011 and was bottom of 60 dispatcher list. I would likely be in top 5 or top 10 in seniority now if I stayed.
In this time, Ive heard stories of other regionals being nearly career destinations and major airlines shying away from hiring from other regionals. I saw one thread where someone was wondering if certain majors have agreements not to hire from that regional.
If you want ATC, I would find an airline where you wont get too comfortable. If ATC doesnt work out, an airline that positions you well in the career field is a good choice. Temporary pain for long term gain.
If you want a job at an airline that people like working for you need experience. 6 months at Ryan may be good enough for most of the regionals and some majors. It is depends on when an airline hires, how many and who applies. If you are too picky with limited experience, you will be likely unemployed for a long time as a dispatcher.
ExpressJet should be hiring quite a bit this year. Eagle will likely start hiring end of this year or early next year once AA starts hiring again. Both are in relatively warm winter weather cities.
I would use your connections as much as possible. In six months at Ryan, I would rely on people you knew there to get recommendations and info on hiring at airlines.
Virgin America is known to hire people that match their corporate culture. They do like experience.
The downside of working at Ryan and moving to a regular 121 airline is the fact that a regularly scheduled airline has more flights. Ryan didnt have that many flights per shift and an international flight requires more planning time wise than a domestic flight. At a major or regional domestically, 50-60 flights released and followed is about normal. Some are higher and some are a little lower. Going from planning a few flights to quickly making a decision when planning 60 takes time getting used to for some.
Airlines also have fuel policies. Ryan was pretty lax on fuel because the government footed the bill often and didnt care about fuel costs. Regionals also have extremely weight critical planes. 60 full flights on an ERJ in the winter time or hot summer day can be a real challenge.
In choosing a 121 airline, you need to evaluate your career goals. Many airlines people want to work at will not want to hire someone that is in the ATC hiring pool. Some regionals wont mind but many airlines will see it as hiring someone that will likely be jumping ship soon. Some airlines dont mind high attrition while others want a new hire that will stick around.
Pinnacle might suck but the shelf life of a Pinnacle dispatcher is 6 months or less. If you are planning on jumping ship to ATC, it may not be a bad idea to take a dispatch job in a place where the manager of dispatch is happy to see dispatchers leave the company for bigger and better things. Many managers even at a regional dont want to see dispatchers leaving.
If you determine you want to stay in dispatch, 1-2 years at Pinnacle almost makes you a shoe in at many majors. If you have tail routing/supervisor experience you are even more golden in finding a major job. Many airlines think if someone can survive at Pinnacle for a while, they can more than handle what that airline does.
I let the numbers speak for it on that point. My new hire class at Eagle had 2 Pinnacle, 3 XJT (I was both XJT/9E) and 1 internal crew scheduler hire. The class before mine had 4 Pinnacle out of 12 new hires. There are several others hired at Eagle with Pinnacle experience. AA took three ex-9E dispatchers with around one year of experience. UAL hired at least 6-12 9E people just in 2011-2012 alone, 2 with less than 6 months experience. Delta took one 9E duty manager last year and Fedex has taken a few dispatchers and supervisors. Other regionals and LCCs also take Pinnacle people in large numbers. I was hired by 9E in January 2011 and was bottom of 60 dispatcher list. I would likely be in top 5 or top 10 in seniority now if I stayed.
In this time, Ive heard stories of other regionals being nearly career destinations and major airlines shying away from hiring from other regionals. I saw one thread where someone was wondering if certain majors have agreements not to hire from that regional.
If you want ATC, I would find an airline where you wont get too comfortable. If ATC doesnt work out, an airline that positions you well in the career field is a good choice. Temporary pain for long term gain.
deltabobo
Wingman Extraordinaire!
Wow...talk about the biggest amount of BS I have ever heard. I'm thinking about awarding you the Billy Madison Award for that line alone. This is the biggest misconception about military charter work out there...fuel is not free. The DOD gives you a fuel price that often lower than normal Jet-A prices at most bases. They will allot you a certain amount of money for fuel in each FY contract. If you go under the allotment, that money is yours to keep as extra; if you go over the allotment, the amount that you spend for fuel comes out of your own pocket. The pilots at RIA often topped the aircraft off for no rhyme or reason, because they thought all fuel was free.
deltabobo
Wingman Extraordinaire!
The last I checked (as of January 11, 2013), Ryan International Airlines was a Part 121 Supplemental Carrier, operating under the SAME regulations as "regular" run-of-the-mill domestic carrier that you speak of. The only difference is in supplemental carrier is operational control exists between a PIC and the director of operations vs a domestic/flag operations where the operational control exists between the PIC & the dispatcher. Go ahead and speak highly of Pinnacle, Expressjet, and other regional carriers. In the same time in takes you to plan 50-60 flights, I may/may not have 1-2 flights as a supplemental dispatcher. But lets give you a preview of what I have to go through as supplemental dispatcher. Shall we?
I'm ferrying in a Boeing 767-300ER, from let's say RFD to RIV to pick up a load of Marines, and taking them to Bishkek, Kyrgyzstan. Our military sales dept has sold the airplane for 240 seats, with ACL (allowable cabin load) for 84000 lbs...the route of todays flight is from RIV-NGU-YQX-LEJ-FRU-LEJ-YQX-NKT-RFD. About four priors to load, I send a max payload flight plan to the loadmaster on the ground in RIV to give to crew. I tell to call me in dispatch once we have a known payload, and that goes for the crew. I tell him that we are going to be payload tight about of NGU, so please tell me exactly. Approximately, 1 hour prior to departure, we get the final numbers from the loadmaster. I start planning the next leg. I next call the handler on the ground in NGU asking them what to expect for load out of NGU (pax/bag wise). Meanwhile, we finish all the catering in RIV, start boarding, finish fueling, and we have on time departure. Once he is at cruising, I call him on SATCOM, and find out where loads are, so I can start planning the high critical loads (NGU-LEJ). Granted the schedule says to go YQX first, but I want to save a cycle on an aircraft if possible. I load it the data from crew into the W&B computer, along with data given to me by the handlers at NGU. and determined if we can but some more bags in the fwd compartment, and two more pallets in the afts, we can take it all and go nonstop, and remaining within CG limits. I run the runway performance through Aerodata and we determine that if we use improved climb, flaps 25, off RWY 28, then we can go with a 4300kg payload. Max for the aircraft was 43067 kgs. I briefed the skipper (who was one of my favorites) and explained to him my plan: I told him that I want to go direct and he was on board. We loaded that pig up...and we left an 1 hour and got airborne....
What you call the downside of one company, actually became the upside for some. One of my best friends from RIA. She was hired a dispatcher (I trained her as a dispatcher); then she got upgraded to the SOC Duty Manager desk; then when I got upgraded, she trained me. All in space of two years. She applied at UPS following the closure of RIA...guess what, she got hired. And you what, she makes more money doing Jepp Revisions that you will ever make dispatch jungle jets for MQ, 9E, or whatever regional you want next.
womanpilot73
Well-Known Member
@ deltabobo... I was gonna respond, but u said it all...
MT
Well-Known Member
Living proof that this is a load of bull. I have 5 years AND supervisory experience and the majors have not said boo.
manniax
Well-met in the Ka-tet
Hang in there MT. I think I had over ten years of experience before I finally got the call. (I did have one interview with a major before then, after I'd been dispatching for about 4 years, but I didn't get an offer until I'd been in the industry over a decade. Of course, some people are lucky and get a call much sooner.)
Flagship_dxer
Penske Material
You were the the one that told me all this. You were the one that told me at XJT that you were going to struggle with XJT fuel policies because at Ryan you were able to put on tons of extra hold fuel on your international flights. You get the liar of the year of award from me.
Flagship_dxer
Penske Material
If you have five years and supervisory experience and havent made a major its because you either didnt network well enough or you are just a bad dispatcher. Ive seen too many people wine and complain about not making a major airline without looking at themselves. If you are good enough or well connected enough you will make it to a major.
MT
Well-Known Member
If you have the mystical secret to networking the please do tell which major you've gotten on with. I have been working my tail off and doing everything within my control right. I have no control whether or not Taleo selects my resume when its in a pool with a million other resumes.
Trust me, I've been racking my brain daily to figure out why I'm getting passed over and don't see what more I can do personally. Every deficiency I've found, I've taken actions to correct. If it really were that easy, then we would all be at majors.
Trust me, I've been racking my brain daily to figure out why I'm getting passed over and don't see what more I can do personally. Every deficiency I've found, I've taken actions to correct. If it really were that easy, then we would all be at majors.
manniax
Well-met in the Ka-tet
A lot depends on timing. During a down time in the industry, nobody gets hired by a major, no matter how good a dispatcher they are. When I had five years in, I was at a non-major airline that I quite enjoyed, and I never probably would have sought "major" employment had they stayed in business. I think it is likely that there are some senior dispatchers at JetBlue that are perhaps feel the same...or at SkyWest, etc. Sometimes a person is very happy where they are living and happy with the company they are at, so they see no need to try and "move up" to a major.
In my case, after that airline I was at went under, the only people hiring were regionals, so I had to start looking again - and I did find a major willing to hire me, but it took a while. I think I had just over 10 years of experience when I finally got hired at my current (major legacy) employer. My point in all this is, if you have five years in this career down and you're not at a major yet, you shouldn't just give up and quit trying.
MT
Well-Known Member
Yeah. It was a really nasty situation. Lucky that it only ruined a couple of airplanes.
jose1337
Well-Known Member
Back on topic, speaking of seniority at majors: http://aviationblog.dallasnews.com/2013/05/14218.html/
Nearly 3,800 American Airlines employees have been working for that company at least 10 years longer than I have been alive! Average age 48, and average seniority 18 years.
Nearly 3,800 American Airlines employees have been working for that company at least 10 years longer than I have been alive! Average age 48, and average seniority 18 years.