Ralgha
Well-Known Member
So you're saying that the PNF is not operating the airplane? What the hell are they there for then?
121- logging holds
- Thread starter higney85
- Start date
So you're saying that the PNF is not operating the airplane? What the hell are they there for then?
SpiraMirabilis
Possible Subversive
:yeahthat:
IMC is a condition of flight. It is not special bonus time. The SIC also logs IMC when they go through it, regardless of whose leg it is.
Saying they shouldn't is akin to saying the SIC shouldn't log night hours or shouldn't log total time. It doesn't make sense.
Alchemy
Well-Known Member
I log a hold if it was my leg and we completed one full circuit in the holding pattern, VMC or IMC.
I don't know how you could even do a "visual hold", the very nature of the maneuver requires you to use instruments, even in CAVOK. With that said, I log maybe half a dozen holds per year, if that.
For approaches, I log it if IMC was encountered between the FAF and DH/MAP and it was my leg. I don't end up logging many approaches either.
IMC: log it only if it is my leg. This has been discussed at length on this forum. A year or two ago I went back and retroactively deleted half of my actual time to reflect this.
Night: All flight time which occured from 1 hour after sunset to 1 hour before sunrise.
http://www.logshare.com/log.jsp?email=ehmassey@gmail.com
I don't know how you could even do a "visual hold", the very nature of the maneuver requires you to use instruments, even in CAVOK. With that said, I log maybe half a dozen holds per year, if that.
For approaches, I log it if IMC was encountered between the FAF and DH/MAP and it was my leg. I don't end up logging many approaches either.
IMC: log it only if it is my leg. This has been discussed at length on this forum. A year or two ago I went back and retroactively deleted half of my actual time to reflect this.
Night: All flight time which occured from 1 hour after sunset to 1 hour before sunrise.
http://www.logshare.com/log.jsp?email=ehmassey@gmail.com
kellwolf
Piece of Trash
I pretty much do exactly how Alchemy does, except I didn't go back and delete what I already logged. I used to log IMC as PNF as well, but I figured I already had enough actual time as it was. This way if someone wants to nit pick my log book, let 'em. I can still fall back on the argument of "PNF is operating the aircraft" if they go back far enough.
Nihon_Ni
Well-Known Member
This is not the definition of night time according to FAR 1.1:
Night means the time between the end of evening civil twilight and the beginning of morning civil twilight, as published in the American Air Almanac, converted to local time.
Depending on where you live, EECT is generally about 20 minutes after sunset.
FWIW, you're certainly not wrong by doing it this way because the night time you log is within the FAA's definition of night time and you don't have to log all of your experience, only what's required for currency & advancement.
Alchemy
Well-Known Member
The reason I wait until 1 hour after sunset is the takeoff and landing currency requirement. If I log night starting 20 minutes after sunset, then make a landing 40 minutes after sunset, that would show up in my logbook as a night landing yet it was not a night landing for the purposes of night currency (1 hour after sunset). I can live with a 10-15% reduction in what I log as night flying in order to have an accurate record of my night currency.
higney85
Property of Scheduling
Maybe there is some confusion here by either myself, or others on this board. Per FAR 61.51G and FAR61.57G3 YOU must be the manipulator of controls and be operating the aircraft be reference to instruments. On legs that I am PF (Pilot Flying) I am doing just that- flying the plane. On legs where I am PNF (Pilot NOT Flying) I am taking care of pretty much everything other than actually flying the plane- ATC, dispatch, checklists, prepare the approach, raise gear/falps, etc. If you are justifying the fact that while flying in IMC as PNF one can log the IMC time, you would also have to explain the same rationale to say you can log every takeoff and landing. I do not see how you can do such a thing. I have asked an FAA person (called the MEM FSDO) in addition to reading the regs and was told that only the time where you are PF you can log the IMC/Appr/Landing. As PNF or Pilot monitoring you do not log anything more than the appropriate PIC/SIC requirement columns. These would include TT, SIC or PIC, XC, multi, night (if applicable) and any other generic column appropriate (such as a Jet or turbine column).
This question was about holds and the FSDO said to log the holds if I am trying to keep IFR currency per FAR61.57, even though I am covered under part 121 flying for part 121 flying under the requirements of the appropriate annual/bi-annual PC. They really didn't have an answer/clarification on the question of who logs (PF/PNF) a hold, just that it can be logged for currency.
Hope that helps for those who search. As always your logbook is YOURS and as long as you can explain things you are covered. I log only IMC time where I am the PF, log only the TO and LND that I perform as PF, and only approaches that I fly be reference to instruments per the FAR's (I use actual at or beyond the FAF as a point). Night, TT, Jet, Multi,XC, and SIC/PIC (as appropriate) are logged every leg regardless of PNF or PF status.
higney85
Property of Scheduling
I agree with all of the above. As far as night I use "judgement". If I need a map light to see the charts, all the airport lights are on when we come in to land, and the walkaround requires a flashlight- its night. This typically takes a little while after sunset but I don't keep track of what is exactly "1 hour" after sunset. Not really sure how you can do that on a regional schedule- I am just lucky to know the correct timezone.
Yank&BankmyRJ145
New Member
I work harder on the visual approaches than any other approach. Just my logbook pro does not have section for me to log it as a approach. As for night I use my best judgment, If most of the flight was at night-its night. If I took off and it was dark for 10 mins of a two hour flight-its day.
kellwolf
Piece of Trash
61.57 is for recency of experience, and the only one that I see that says "sole manipulator" is PIC. 61.51 does NOT say "sole manipulator," it says "operates the aircraft solely by reference to instruments." It depends on your definition of "operate." Technically, a CRJ can't be operated (except in an emergency condition) without a PM per the certificate, so I think it's a valid argument. Some FSDOs will agree, some will disagree. Same with some interviewers. I can see it going either way.
Ralgha
Well-Known Member
FAR61.51 said:
It's pretty basic reading comprehension. It says you have to operate the airplane. Not "sole manipulator of the controls" as is stated in so many other places.
There isn't a part (g) to 61.57 and even if there was, it would be irrelevant.
Answer this: are you operating the aircraft as PNF? OF COURSE YOU ARE. You're changing configurations, tuning radios, programming the FMS, flipping switches, pushing buttons.
You don't log approaches because of this little gem:
FAR61.57 said:
You didn't perform it if you weren't manipulating the flight controls.
You don't log landings because of this little gem:
FAR61.57 said:
See the difference?
Even so, 61.57 is for currency purposes only. You can log whatever the hell you want to as far as landings and approaches go whether PF or PNF, they are not governed by 61.51, but only the ones that qualify under 61.57 count for currency.
Part of your responsibilities as PNF is to make sure the PF doesn't jack it up. If you're in IMC, how exactly are you going to do that WITHOUT reference to the instruments? Going by your rational, you shouldn't be logging night time, X/C time, multi-time, or even flight time if you're the PNF.
Ralgha
Well-Known Member
I didn't say anything about holds, but here's what you do.
You can log any hold you do, whether VMC or IMC. Why? Because it is not mentioned in 61.51. Log whatever you want.
If you want it for currency, then you have to perform it, meaning you have to be on the flight controls, and it has to be done in IMC. Both requirements are per 61.57, which ONLY applies to currency.
If you're worried about what an interviewer might think, then log it like you're logging it for currency, which segways right back into logging actual time. There is no requirement anywhere for actual time with regards to currency. 61.57 doesn't say word one about it. It is only governed by 61.51, which says you must be operating the airplane. If you are PNF in an airplane that requires two pilots, you are operating the airplane.
You can log any hold you do, whether VMC or IMC. Why? Because it is not mentioned in 61.51. Log whatever you want.
If you want it for currency, then you have to perform it, meaning you have to be on the flight controls, and it has to be done in IMC. Both requirements are per 61.57, which ONLY applies to currency.
If you're worried about what an interviewer might think, then log it like you're logging it for currency, which segways right back into logging actual time. There is no requirement anywhere for actual time with regards to currency. 61.57 doesn't say word one about it. It is only governed by 61.51, which says you must be operating the airplane. If you are PNF in an airplane that requires two pilots, you are operating the airplane.
kellwolf
Piece of Trash
higney85
Property of Scheduling
Damn you for getting it back on topic!
I realized that I was understanding things "wrong" and I didn't have the balls to say "I'm wrong and your right". I say that too much as it is for a newlywed. I also learned that my fastfar has some subparts that are not in my far/aim.
