121 crosswind landing technique

[ian]

I'd strongly suggest giving it a try. It's the way it was designed to be flown. Works just as nicely on the 330 as well.

Can you at least admit that you were wrong in regard to your interpretation of the FCOM reference?

WRONG. I have 0 hours in any airbus and about 25 minutes in a 350 sim and you are wrong.

 

[sefro]

 

[Awacs963]

Understood. This is more accurate. Now, you can still approach wings level, and decrab in the flare without ever using the wing down method. I agree you can you use the wing down method. You can even land 5 degrees of crab at touchdown.

Can we all agree?

Awacs

 

[Cptnchia]

Can we all agree?

Awacs

WORLDSTAR!!!

 

[JDean3204]

Maybe, just maybe there is no right way to do it. Just some ways are more wrong than others..??

 

[BobDDuck]

Understood. This is more accurate. Now, you can still approach wings level, and decrab in the flare without ever using the wing down method. I agree you can you use the wing down method. You can even land 5 degrees of crab at touchdown.

Can we all agree?

Awacs

Sure, you CAN do that, but

a) in a really nasty crosswind, even if you decrab just as the mains touch down, if you don't keep the upwind wing down, you are going to get blow across the runway and

b) yes, by limitation you can land in up to a 5 degree crab, but why would you want to? It's not very comfortable and wrecks the tires.

 

[CFIscare]

I’ve got near damn 7 years on the thing and when @PeanuckleCRJ gives advice or words of wisdom I listen.

As someone who has had @PeanuckleCRJ as the motion operator in the sim, I can confirm this.

This is what it looked like when he walked into the briefing room.

 

[Cherokee_Cruiser]

Understood. This is more accurate. Now, you can still approach wings level, and decrab in the flare without ever using the wing down method. I agree you can you use the wing down method. You can even land 5 degrees of crab at touchdown.

Can we all agree?

Awacs

Not in a strong cross wind. While you can do what you are saying, you will drift off centerline and land off center/side of the runway.

 

[PeanuckleCRJ]

As someone who has had @PeanuckleCRJ as the motion operator in the sim, I can confirm this.

This is what it looked like when he walked into the briefing room.

Ha! I always felt like it looked more like:



Definitely me doing A periods on the right:

 

[PeanuckleCRJ]

Not in a strong cross wind. While you can do what you are saying, you will drift off centerline and land off center/side of the runway.

Yep! In fact, the Airbus company sims in MIA will give you a red screen doing that method with the 38 knot crosswind. I'm guessing awacs hasn't had many high crosswind landings... and it still baffles me how he accrued 1200 hours thinking he couldn't lower the wing in a crosswind.

 

[bLizZuE]

Bliss, ignorance, etc.

 

[PeanuckleCRJ]

This was for sure me in evening sims diving in just at the last second after ATL traffic.

 

[Inverted]

This is the problem with Airbus and training, the idea that it is so much NOT like a normal airplane, people seem to overthink it. Fly it like a normal airplane. You can dip the upwind wing low, OF COURSE YOU CAN ITS AN AIRPLANE. Crab, kick it out and dip the wing slightly, done deal.

You cannot kick a crap out and keep the wings level. Mother nature doesn't give a crap whether it is an XLS or an A320. Strong crosswinds are gonna blow the airplane across the runway and there is nothing an airbus does automatically to stop it. Keep in mind, this airplane arguably behaves the most like a traditional airplane in flare mode....

BTW there are dozens of videos that demonstrate this...

 

[jtrain609]

This is the problem with Airbus and training, the idea that it is so much NOT like a normal airplane, people seem to overthink it. Fly it like a normal airplane. You can dip the upwind wing low, OF COURSE YOU CAN ITS AN AIRPLANE. Crab, kick it out and dip the wing slightly, done deal.

You cannot kick a crap out and keep the wings level. Mother nature doesn't give a crap whether it is an XLS or an A320. Strong crosswinds are gonna blow the airplane across the runway and there is nothing an airbus does automatically to stop it. Keep in mind, this airplane arguably behaves the most like a traditional airplane in flare mode....

BTW there are dozens of videos that demonstrate this...

I mean, there are a bunch of other ways that it's not like a normal airplane: geometric VNAV, it won't accelerate to a constraint speed if the speed in the DES page is lower, sometimes DES mode knocks off early and all you get as a warning is a triple chirp, there's no easily usable HSI (an HSI on the ND doesn't count), there's no pitch and or aileron trim, the thrust levers don't move, the thrust levers are a thrust limiting system with auto thrust engaged, GS MINI.

I can see how people start to second guess crap on the bus with how much stuff on the thing is so... FRENCH.

 

[PeanuckleCRJ]

I mean, there are a bunch of other ways that it's not like a normal airplane: geometric VNAV, it won't accelerate to a constraint speed if the speed in the DES page is lower, sometimes DES mode knocks off early and all you get as a warning is a triple chirp, there's no easily usable HSI (an HSI on the ND doesn't count), there's no pitch and or aileron trim, the thrust levers don't move, the thrust levers are a thrust limiting system with auto thrust engaged, GS MINI.

I can see how people start to second guess crap on the bus with how much stuff on the thing is so... FRENCH.

Ugh... I'm going to have to throw out the commandments like @CFIscare made me do.

1. geometric VNAV- the VNAV functions identical to the 757. Idle path first, then geometric. HOWEVER, unlike the 757, you can create a new idle path by making the hamster spin the wheels again. Put in the cost index again, put in a speed in DES, go direct to somwhere... just make the hamster go to work.

2. How does an HSI on the ND not count since the ND is the HSI?

3. Ok, no real need with FBW... rudder trim is fully functional when hand flying and I use it frequently. Most don't realize it's there and usable, though due to the voodoo factor that awacs bought into.

4. Sure the thrust levers move. I moved them both forward AND backward last time I flew the plane!

5. Yep. That is what throws people off. It is rare for me to fly an approach with A/THR engaged. They are short throw and super responsive. My Boeing/Douglas/Canadair background is when the AP comes off, I turn off the A/THR... guess what works well on the bus? She is a beautiful flying plane and super responsive in all areas. Why not enjoy how well she works with it all off?

6. GS MINI is something I came to embrace. I overrode it a couple times with terrible results. just plopped the thing on instead of the usual grease job. GS MINI replaces the Boeing additives in a more active manner. It works.

 

[PeanuckleCRJ]

Addressing your DES mode issues- Those are when it is coming up on the circle D. I need some more specific data on the disengage and the triple chirp to give you a good input on why she is going into reversion. (which is what the triple chirp means)

 

[etflies]

I fly for an airline that was all 737 before it became all Airbii and most pilots that I fly with prefer the Bus by a wide margin. Those that don’t stop talking about the Boeing/whine about the Bus seem to be the ones that absolutely must tinker with as much as they can, because pilot reasons, only to inevitably end up making a mess of what could’ve been easily done with a “push” on the FCU.

It seems to me that a lot of the consternation regarding le bús stems from pilots trying to overthink the airplane. Don’t input garbage, and it’ll do it’s thing and it’ll do it well 99% of the time. The rest of the time, well, be an aviator. This thing isn’t that difficult so let’s stop trying to make it into something that it isn’t. Contrary to airplane fan boi belief, Airbus knows what they’re doing and they do it well.

 

[CFIscare]

Ugh... I'm going to have to throw out the commandments like @CFIscare made me do.

1. geometric VNAV- the VNAV functions identical to the 757. Idle path first, then geometric. HOWEVER, unlike the 757, you can create a new idle path by making the hamster spin the wheels again. Put in the cost index again, put in a speed in DES, go direct to somwhere... just make the hamster go to work.

2. How does an HSI on the ND not count since the ND is the HSI?

3. Ok, no real need with FBW... rudder trim is fully functional when hand flying and I use it frequently. Most don't realize it's there and usable, though due to the voodoo factor that awacs bought into.

4. Sure the thrust levers move. I moved them both forward AND backward last time I flew the plane!

5. Yep. That is what throws people off. It is rare for me to fly an approach with A/THR engaged. They are short throw and super responsive. My Boeing/Douglas/Canadair background is when the AP comes off, I turn off the A/THR... guess what works well on the bus? She is a beautiful flying plane and super responsive in all areas. Why not enjoy how well she works with it all off?

6. GS MINI is something I came to embrace. I overrode it a couple times with terrible results. just plopped the thing on instead of the usual grease job. GS MINI replaces the Boeing additives in a more active manner. It works.

I was about to spread the good word until I saw you beat me to it, so I'll just say "what he said" and add that the bus is awesome to fly with everything turned off. It's a bit sad that even guys with years of experience are so hesitant to turn off some of the automation and just fly it. Also, I absolutely love GS mini. When you understand why it is doing it, it's a no brainer.

 

[BobDDuck]

Addressing your DES mode issues- Those are when it is coming up on the circle D.

On a descend via STAR, with speed restrictions, it won't hit the speed always as it has the bracketed speed region. It seems silly that you have to select a speed instead of letting managed just do its thing, especially when there are a bunch of speed changes on the arrival.

 

[Inverted]

I mean, there are a bunch of other ways that it's not like a normal airplane: geometric VNAV, it won't accelerate to a constraint speed if the speed in the DES page is lower, sometimes DES mode knocks off early and all you get as a warning is a triple chirp, there's no easily usable HSI (an HSI on the ND doesn't count), there's no pitch and or aileron trim, the thrust levers don't move, the thrust levers are a thrust limiting system with auto thrust engaged, GS MINI.

I can see how people start to second guess crap on the bus with how much stuff on the thing is so... FRENCH.

It’s an advanced airplane with systems you need to know and understand, but it’s just an airplane. Fly it like an airplane, it’s an airplane.

I don’t second guess anything. I watch it when I am under automation to make sure it doesn’t screw up but if you are constantly aware of what you are commanding the airplane to do, and watching to make sure it actually does what you tell it, you’re fine. Sure sometimes the plane doesn’t like something in a given mode every now and then, you just remove the automation, fly it like an airplane then figure out what’s going on before you kick automation on again.

Again I think this airplane is overthought sometimes. If you know the Airbus language, and have a basic knowledge of what the airplane will do in a given mode, you’re good.

I’ll never be an expert on this plane and hell with 800 hours in it I’m just starting to get the hang of it. But I kick off the autopilot and autothrust in most approaches and aside from a few caviats like how pitch and roll are commanded differently than other airplanes, I find that it basically flies like an airplane. In training it was beaten with a dead horse that the Bus isn’t close to an airplane and I think it trips people up.