$100 user fee

Yeah, BUT.

If you add in the medical, license and other departments like crash investigation, scheduling, legislative affairs, it's a lot more coverage than one would realize.

ALPA is a union. AOPA is a PAC. ALPA has a PAC and does a lot more than a PAC does.

ATN_Pilot's statement was that AOPA is a "Worthless, money-wasting organization." Comparing the dollar for dollar value of AOPA to ALPA and calling AOPA worthless and money-wasting requires a seriously distorted view of reality.
 
First of all, for those who fly in the Part 121 environment, even though what ATN_Pilot is saying isn't popular, he does speak the truth. AOPA does things that directly conflict with our best interests. Secondly, I haven't flown GA in years and hope to NEVER have to fly GA again (the last place I want to be on days off are at an airport), but AOPA has done a crappy job of keeping costs 'low' for many to enjoy flying as a hobby and ultimately promoting aviation. Thirdly, as they have done such a crappy job of keeping costs low, I have a feeling they are eventually going to be on the losing end of the user fee battle unless the NBAA can stop it.

Finally, it is worth mentioning AGAIN that Roger Cohen came from the AOPA. The old saying, the apple doesn't fall far from the tree, I think applies here.
 
I gladly pay my AOPA dues each year. While I get seriously annoyed with their constant spamming, I think they do some great work with airport advocacy, lobbying for the GA at the national level, and the air safety institute puts together some very good recurring training options for the average pilot... it's an excellent organization.
 
ATN_Pilot's statement was that AOPA is a "Worthless, money-wasting organization." Comparing the dollar for dollar value of AOPA to ALPA and calling AOPA worthless and money-wasting requires a seriously distorted view of reality.

If you ever have a medical or representational issue, doubt you would be calling ALPA worthless.
 
No.

I guess what I meant is if you had a representation or medical issue, it would pay for your ALPA dues for quite some time.
 
One more thing Houston, are you the one who flies for a large airline with bases in Hong Kong (main base), Vancouver, LAX, etc?
 
Yes. But I think you know that. If you had read the user fees threads in their entirety, you would have seen that my primary motivation for user fees is always about increasing GA's contribution to the Trust Fund and ending the unfair burden that the airlines are forced to bear, reducing their margins. That's the main goal. Reducing the pool of available pilots might be a side effect that would be beneficial to increase bargaining leverage, but it isn't the primary goal. In the same way, I favored the new Flight Time/Duty Time regulations. That regulation did eventually get finalized, and it goes into effect next year. The primary goal is to increase safety. But a side effect will be a necessary increase in pilot staffing at many carriers, driving up demand. Not the primary goal, but it is a nice benefit for someone worried about bargaining.

As far as new pilots breaking into the industry, nowhere in that second quote do you see me talking about how I want it to be easy for new pilots to break into the industry. All I said was that pilots who are breaking into the industry shouldn't be scared away from a legitimate airline by people with outdated prejudices. Your attempts to connect these two disparate ideas are flimsy at best. It's clear that you don't have a firm grasp of the issues, so you're grasping at straws instead and trying to twist words.


Again, I asked for your OPINION. I got it. I don't care about trust funds. Clearly... because I read what you said, quoted the noteworthy (to me, in order to gather your position, and opinion) items, and linked the rest, I didn't read it, and thus have a reading comrehension problem.... Clearly. :rolleyes: You're right, you never said you wanted it to be easy, you said you wanted it to be COST PROHIBITIVE. It already is. New pilots shouldn't be scared from a "legitimate airline"? What if they don't WANT to fly in the airlines? Then you want it to be as cost prohibitive as possible for a kid to accomplish their dream.

I think you think you're still playing with VATSIM and DVA when you say some of this stuff. Do the kids you play with at DVA know that your intention is to make is as difficult as possible for them to obtain their ratings, and to fly airplanes? Do they know that you are in a position to influence those decisions, and have that motive? You are in a position to affect GREAT change in, not just aviation, but someone's life. You have a position where, if you wanted to, you could create scholarships, and grants to allow those same kids to achieve their dreams. Instead, you are so insecure, small, and simple minded that you're ok with the idea of making those dreams impossible for the same group of people that inspired you to chase your dreams. Simply inconceivable to me, honestly.

I think if you had it your way, the only airplanes left flying would be airliners. And for everyone else, it would be "just too bad". If they can't afford to fly, than so be it. All in the interest of cronyism and you waking up and having a job tomorrow. While I may say things off base, and without a complete and thorough understanding of it about flying (reference the mountain wave discussion), as I am low time, I am juggling 6 years of controlling with 1 year of flying, and am sorting it all out; I assure you, I know enough about business to understand what you're saying, and the terrible ramifications will be wrought on the aviation industry as a whole if you're allowed to proceed with your agenda. I also am a huge advocate for a free market within the GA community, and aviation. I am a business owner. I am one of the guys that, if you had it your way, you'd wipe me out. So that you may have a job. And, because I don't have an interest in flying for an airline, you're ok with pushing me out.

You have an agenda. As the VP of an airline union, you want to ensure that every one of your pilots has a job. I get that, and respect that. But, in my opinion, you're going about it all wrong. You have a position where you could contribute great things to aviation as a whole, instead you choose to take so that you may have more, leaving others with less. You're "doing your job".

Starting in these places, you and I have a difference of not only opinion, but priorities. I want every child that wants to learn to fly an airplane to have that opportunity. I want every man or woman who wants to fly professionally to have that opportunity. And I want aviation to return to being one of the front runners in advanced technology, like it was for 5 decades. You want to wake up tomorrow, and ensure that you have a job. Do you REALLY think we'll see eye to eye?

Again, thanks for your opinion.
 
No one in government has EVER proposed user fees for GA aircraft. EVER..

I don't think that is accurate. The White House budget proposals for FY12 and FY13 both included GA user fees. http://www.whitehouse.gov/sites/default/files/omb/budget/fy2012/assets/jointcommitteereport.pdf -- page 22.

For what it is worth, the proposal doesn't say "big wig corporate jets."

To reduce the deficit and more equitably share the cost of air traffic services across the aviation user community, the Administration proposes to establish a new mandatory surcharge for air traffic services This proposal would create a $100 per flight fee, payable to the FAA, by aviation operators who fly in controlled airspace. Military aircraft, public aircraft, recreational piston aircraft, air ambulances, aircraft operating outside of controlled airspace, and Canada-to-Canada flights would
be exempted.

"Recreational piston aircraft" seems to be the only exemption, which few of the GA aircraft I fly would qualify as. And the premise that GA uses an equal amount of ATC services is a flawed argument.
 
Finally, it is worth mentioning AGAIN that Roger Cohen came from the AOPA. The old saying, the apple doesn't fall far from the tree, I think applies here.
Randy Babbit

Didn't he help negotiate against ALPA while the Pinnacle pilots had their stupid long negotiating period?
 
Do you REALLY think we'll see eye to eye?

No, I don't, which is exactly why I told you that I'm not interested in debating it with you. You don't care about the security of my profession, because you don't have a personal interest in it. I will work to protect my profession, and you can work to protect your hobby.
 
"Recreational piston aircraft" seems to be the only exemption, which few of the GA aircraft I fly would qualify as. And the premise that GA uses an equal amount of ATC services is a flawed argument.

Really? You're flying turbine aircraft in the GA environment? I doubt it. When the President uses the term "recreational aircraft," they're not using the same definition as the FARs. To them, anything with a piston engine, even an 8-place cabin-class piston aircraft, is "recreational." Reserve your judgment until you see the actual legislative language, and I think you'll find that your concerns are unjustified.
 
No, I don't, which is exactly why I told you that I'm not interested in debating it with you. You don't care about the security of my profession, because you don't have a personal interest in it. I will work to protect my profession, and you can work to protect your hobby.

Yes, because corporate aviation is, by definition, a hobby. :rolleyes: That, is a VATSIM statement.

The rest of what you said is rhetoric. Propaganda. Junk, really. Let me repeat what I said.

I want every child that wants to learn to fly an airplane to have that opportunity. I want every man or woman who wants to fly professionally to have that opportunity. And I want aviation to return to being one of the front runners in advanced technology, like it was for 5 decades.
Comprehend that. There are no caveats in that statement. I would call that a "personal interest", it just extends outside of myself, so you may not be able to recognize it for what it is.
Stop with the propaganda.

One more point; See all the me, I, and my? It should read we, ours, and us. As a leader, you should be thinking about the whole, the team. The entirety. But you're so concerned about YOU that you've forgotten about THEM, or US, in the case of aviation.

Are you intentionally dodging the questions that I'm asking?
 
To be quite honest, ALPA/Airlines want to "protect their interest", meaning they want more High Value Customers in their first class seats (ala, Pre-9/11). Post 9/11 and the security enhancements turned many of these HVC towards the corporate/fractional side of aviation. Couple that with poor morale at the airlines, resulting in poor customer service resulted in airlines seeing the FC cabin getting less full.

What better way to force those people back into the airline mode, let's just tax (or fee) them into it! Awesome, high-fiving white guys all around (for those of you who remember "Almost Live", TV show from the 90's, you know what I'm talking about).

With more and more military pilots wanting nothing to do with airline drama/bs, you're going need those pilots coming from the GA world...don't bend them over any more than they already are.
 
Yes, because corporate aviation is, by definition, a hobby.

I wasn't aware that you were in corporate aviation. In that case, you have the NBAA to fight for your intests. And I would expect them to do just that. Just like I expect my union to fight for my interests. Our interests are not intertwined, so I'm sorry, but we're just not going to agree.

As a leader, you should be thinking about the whole, the team.

I am thinking about "the team." But we're not on the same team, buddy.
 
Good gravy. I had no idea that some professional (and specifically, 121) pilots had it in for GA. And here I thought we were all on the same team... Fly All The Planes!
 
Good gravy. I had no idea that some professional (and specifically, 121) pilots had it in for GA. And here I thought we were all on the same team... Fly All The Planes!

I object to that characterization. I don't "have it in" for you. I just don't believe that GA pays it's fair share to the Aviation Trust Fund, and I want you to start doing so. Just as my belief in a progressive tax code doesn't mean that I "have it in" for those making more money. It's a question of fairness. Reasonable people can disagree on what is "fair" without demonizing each other. Or at least, they should be able to.
 
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