1/2 mile vis

There aren't any provisions in the rules of the road to allow a driver to determine that his speed is anything other than what's indicated on the speedometer (barring any wheel/tire mods and a letter that states the speedometer is inaccurate because of that)


That's fine. But you're not going to win the argument that it was really 1/2 mile when the AWOS and tower reports are less than 1/4. Unless you have some really good eye witness accounts to back you up.

I don't see a reason, other than an emergency, to risk it. And if it's an emergency, who cares? You're allowed to do what you need to do.
 
I would love to know the reasoning behind this one. 91.175(d) talks about landing under IFR, and it mentions no pilot may land when "the flight visibility is less than the visibility prescribed in the standard instrument approach procedure being used."

I have a few theories for this, and this is how I've explained it when asked. The first one is that it gives them the opportunity to hang you if you're blatantly busting minimums. If you shoot the approach and it's been 1/8SM FG all day, and you magically make it in, and you say "well I had the ALS in sight, then went down to 100'AGL and saw the threshold lighting so I landed," this gives them the opportunity to say, "BS! There's no way you saw that, 91.13 and you were lying, go directly to jail, do not pass go, do not collect $200."

Second, remember that it doesn't talk about landing with less flight vis so much as it talks about "operating below DA or MDA or continue an approach below DA/DH," there are places where there aren't ILSs to 200 and 1/2 left and right, imagine an approach with outrageously high minimums. In these places, it could very well be that the approach has a visibility requirement that is based on the ability of the airplane to maneuver and meet terps on a missed. So, you go to one of these airports, and let's say the plate calls for 4SM of vis, you fly into there and at the MAP there's only 3SM miles of flight vis, but you keep going, because "F-it, it's VFR!" and you then you realize that the actual runway is completely fogged in and there's no way you can land or a moose is on the runway or whatever. The problem is now that you cannot see far enough ahead to avoid obstacles on the climbout (since at 120kts on the missed 3NM is only 1.5minutes) and you impact a mountain, or -potentially more sketchy - you can't fly the published missed because you're already too far off the path during your circling maneuver and have to make it up on your own because you can't see far enough ahead to dodge pointy rocks. Here are a few approaches where I think this applies and is worth mentioning:

http://155.178.201.160/d-tpp/1307/06213LDADH.PDF (Note that the MAP is 5.2NM from the field, and the vis mins are 5SM)
http://155.178.201.160/d-tpp/1307/09292RA.PDF (Note that this approach requires you to "fly visually for 5.2 NM" into the airport)
http://155.178.201.160/d-tpp/1307/01191LDAX8.PDF

Now the Juneau one is really the most interesting plate and worthy of discussion. Consider where the missed approach point is. 2.2 DME from the runway. Consider the following situation. You're out over the water before MOLRE at 1880' exactly - just like a good boy. Also imagine that the visibility is great but the ceiling is crummy over the actual airport (1000'ish). You can see the approach lights, and start down to do your "normal descent" but as you start down (now past MOLRE) you realize that the vis inside of the bowl is much lower. The Feds want you to be able to have the visibility to maneuver out of whatever situation you've gotten yourself into. As soon as you recognize that you don't have the vis required you have to cob it and go missed, because the guys who write approaches want you to be able to have a maneuvering budget.

http://155.178.201.160/d-tpp/1307/06367GE.PDF (this approach into DUT shows a similar situation).

Finally, I've experienced whiteout that wasn't visible until I was only a few hundred feet above the ground - that is to say the aairport was distinctly visible until I got close - then it went away. The Feds want you to run away when this happens - they don't want you to try to save it - just go missed.
 
I have a few theories for this, and this is how I've explained it when asked. The first one is that it gives them the opportunity to hang you if you're blatantly busting minimums. If you shoot the approach and it's been 1/8SM FG all day, and you magically make it in, and you say "well I had the ALS in sight, then went down to 100'AGL and saw the threshold lighting so I landed," this gives them the opportunity to say, "BS! There's no way you saw that, 91.13 and you were lying, go directly to jail, do not pass go, do not collect $200."

Second, remember that it doesn't talk about landing with less flight vis so much as it talks about "operating below DA or MDA or continue an approach below DA/DH," there are places where there aren't ILSs to 200 and 1/2 left and right, imagine an approach with outrageously high minimums. In these places, it could very well be that the approach has a visibility requirement that is based on the ability of the airplane to maneuver and meet terps on a missed. So, you go to one of these airports, and let's say the plate calls for 4SM of vis, you fly into there and at the MAP there's only 3SM miles of flight vis, but you keep going, because "F-it, it's VFR!" and you then you realize that the actual runway is completely fogged in and there's no way you can land or a moose is on the runway or whatever. The problem is now that you cannot see far enough ahead to avoid obstacles on the climbout (since at 120kts on the missed 3NM is only 1.5minutes) and you impact a mountain, or -potentially more sketchy - you can't fly the published missed because you're already too far off the path during your circling maneuver and have to make it up on your own because you can't see far enough ahead to dodge pointy rocks. Here are a few approaches where I think this applies and is worth mentioning:

http://155.178.201.160/d-tpp/1307/06213LDADH.PDF (Note that the MAP is 5.2NM from the field, and the vis mins are 5SM)
http://155.178.201.160/d-tpp/1307/09292RA.PDF (Note that this approach requires you to "fly visually for 5.2 NM" into the airport)
http://155.178.201.160/d-tpp/1307/01191LDAX8.PDF

Now the Juneau one is really the most interesting plate and worthy of discussion. Consider where the missed approach point is. 2.2 DME from the runway. Consider the following situation. You're out over the water before MOLRE at 1880' exactly - just like a good boy. Also imagine that the visibility is great but the ceiling is crummy over the actual airport (1000'ish). You can see the approach lights, and start down to do your "normal descent" but as you start down (now past MOLRE) you realize that the vis inside of the bowl is much lower. The Feds want you to be able to have the visibility to maneuver out of whatever situation you've gotten yourself into. As soon as you recognize that you don't have the vis required you have to cob it and go missed, because the guys who write approaches want you to be able to have a maneuvering budget.

http://155.178.201.160/d-tpp/1307/06367GE.PDF (this approach into DUT shows a similar situation).

Finally, I've experienced whiteout that wasn't visible until I was only a few hundred feet above the ground - that is to say the aairport was distinctly visible until I got close - then it went away. The Feds want you to run away when this happens - they don't want you to try to save it - just go missed.


You reference MOLRE which is on the on the RNAV V 8 at Juneau but didn't link that one. Also LDA X is NOTAM'D out of service.. You work for Net Jets or something?

All those approaches have nice 180 turns back out, consider the PAPG LDA/DME D, which if you follow the missed approach procedure after the MAP could have a less than desirable outcome.
 
I have a few theories for this, and this is how I've explained it when asked. The first one is that it gives them the opportunity to hang you if you're blatantly busting minimums. If you shoot the approach and it's been 1/8SM FG all day, and you magically make it in, and you say "well I had the ALS in sight, then went down to 100'AGL and saw the threshold lighting so I landed," this gives them the opportunity to say, "BS! There's no way you saw that, 91.13 and you were lying, go directly to jail, do not pass go, do not collect $200."

Second, remember that it doesn't talk about landing with less flight vis so much as it talks about "operating below DA or MDA or continue an approach below DA/DH," there are places where there aren't ILSs to 200 and 1/2 left and right, imagine an approach with outrageously high minimums. In these places, it could very well be that the approach has a visibility requirement that is based on the ability of the airplane to maneuver and meet terps on a missed. So, you go to one of these airports, and let's say the plate calls for 4SM of vis, you fly into there and at the MAP there's only 3SM miles of flight vis, but you keep going, because "F-it, it's VFR!" and you then you realize that the actual runway is completely fogged in and there's no way you can land or a moose is on the runway or whatever. The problem is now that you cannot see far enough ahead to avoid obstacles on the climbout (since at 120kts on the missed 3NM is only 1.5minutes) and you impact a mountain, or -potentially more sketchy - you can't fly the published missed because you're already too far off the path during your circling maneuver and have to make it up on your own because you can't see far enough ahead to dodge pointy rocks. Here are a few approaches where I think this applies and is worth mentioning:

http://155.178.201.160/d-tpp/1307/06213LDADH.PDF (Note that the MAP is 5.2NM from the field, and the vis mins are 5SM)
http://155.178.201.160/d-tpp/1307/09292RA.PDF (Note that this approach requires you to "fly visually for 5.2 NM" into the airport)
http://155.178.201.160/d-tpp/1307/01191LDAX8.PDF

Now the Juneau one is really the most interesting plate and worthy of discussion. Consider where the missed approach point is. 2.2 DME from the runway. Consider the following situation. You're out over the water before MOLRE at 1880' exactly - just like a good boy. Also imagine that the visibility is great but the ceiling is crummy over the actual airport (1000'ish). You can see the approach lights, and start down to do your "normal descent" but as you start down (now past MOLRE) you realize that the vis inside of the bowl is much lower. The Feds want you to be able to have the visibility to maneuver out of whatever situation you've gotten yourself into. As soon as you recognize that you don't have the vis required you have to cob it and go missed, because the guys who write approaches want you to be able to have a maneuvering budget.

http://155.178.201.160/d-tpp/1307/06367GE.PDF (this approach into DUT shows a similar situation).

Finally, I've experienced whiteout that wasn't visible until I was only a few hundred feet above the ground - that is to say the aairport was distinctly visible until I got close - then it went away. The Feds want you to run away when this happens - they don't want you to try to save it - just go missed.


Well, it actually does talk about flight visibility for landing. The section of my post you quoted is where I quoted directly from the regulations. So while I agree with you that it's a way they can hang you if they need/want to, and there are the extreme approaches like you linked, there is still a requirement to have the minimums on the plate to actually land. 91.175(d) to be precise.
 
All of this discussion reminds me of this video. Great job by the crew. Can't believe how quickly it went from "DH" "Full stop" to ZOMG GTFO.

 
Great feedback everyone, this made for a great discussion with fellow CFI's hanging out in the FBO the other day. Ultimately we digressed the discussion to "what's legal" versus "what's safe" and we discussed why sometimes just because it's legal doesn't mean it's the best course of action.
 
(Pt 121) If I have wx mins at FAF, I fly the approach. If I see required lights/runway references I then land. If I don't I go missed. At no point does "What if a fed is standing by the runway?" ever factor into decision making. Man you guys must've been bored...
 
MALSR/ALSF I/II systems are 2,400ft-3,000ft from first sequence flasher to the runway. If you have the full ALS, then you have 1/2 mile vis.
And if that doesn't satisfy them just say I saw 12 runway edge lights, J/K but seriously ;) then go eat your sandwich. It's all about what YOU see since it is in flight visibility. An MD80 right at mins might not see anything because of the deck angle while a CRJ200 is scrapping the nose on the ground at that point.
 
(Pt 121) If I see required lights/runway references I then land. If I don't I go missed. At no point does "What if a fed is standing by the runway?" ever factor into decision making. Man you guys must've been bored...

At my 121 carrier (and at least one other that I know of) you would be violating company procedures as well as having a hard time explaining how you complied with OpSpec C052 (b)(2) if you saw the runway but landed with RVR lower than required for the approach.

In other words, if the RVR dropped below mins after the FAF, and I continued and saw the runway before DH and landed, I would be illegal.
 
At my 121 carrier (and at least one other that I know of) you would be violating company procedures as well as having a hard time explaining how you complied with OpSpec C052 (b)(2) if you saw the runway but landed with RVR lower than required for the approach.

In other words, if the RVR dropped below mins after the FAF, and I continued and saw the runway before DH and landed, I would be illegal.

Huh? Where do you work?
 
At my 121 carrier (and at least one other that I know of) you would be violating company procedures as well as having a hard time explaining how you complied with OpSpec C052 (b)(2) if you saw the runway but landed with RVR lower than required for the approach.

In other words, if the RVR dropped below mins after the FAF, and I continued and saw the runway before DH and landed, I would be illegal.
I've worked for five airlines and that wouldn't be true at any of them
 
At my 121 carrier (and at least one other that I know of) you would be violating company procedures as well as having a hard time explaining how you complied with OpSpec C052 (b)(2) if you saw the runway but landed with RVR lower than required for the approach.

In other words, if the RVR dropped below mins after the FAF, and I continued and saw the runway before DH and landed, I would be illegal.

How do you know the RVR dropped below mins after the FAF? I don't know a tower on the planet that will call you up after the FAF and tell you anything about visibility. If they did I'd shut my radios off.
 
How do you know the RVR dropped below mins after the FAF? I don't know a tower on the planet that will call you up after the FAF and tell you anything about visibility. If they did I'd shut my radios off.

Even if they did report something lower for god knows why, you're golden once you're past the FAF. If you have the required references at the appropriate points you land. I have never heard of any airline that says a vis report past the FAF is controlling when you're flying. Your own inflight visibility is always the final authority.
 
Even if they did report something lower for god knows why, you're golden once you're past the FAF. If you have the required references at the appropriate points you land. I have never heard of any airline that says a vis report past the FAF is controlling when you're flying. Your own inflight visibility is always the final authority.

Oh I know, but the whole argument is moot. That doesn't happen in the real world.
 
Land the airplane, tell tower you broke out right at minimums, if a fed asks, you had the flight visibility to land, then go drink beer. I know the last thing I'm doing when I'm hand flying a metro down to 1800 RVR is trying to figure out flight visibility when I break out.

You guys really make this flying stuff way harder then it needs to be.
 
How do you know the RVR dropped below mins after the FAF? I don't know a tower on the planet that will call you up after the FAF and tell you anything about visibility. If they did I'd shut my radios off.

At busier airports, with a constant stream of aircraft on the approach, guys often check in with tower and want the latest RVR, especially if it is near mins. Tower of course provides them with that information. I am sure all of us have been there when the RVR keeps fluctuating above and below mins, with the tower providing the latest to the guy checking on with tower.

My manual states that I may only descend below mins if the REPORTED visibility is greater than or equal to the required visibility. It says nothing about flight visibility. This for for CAT I, II,and III approaches, the only exception is for the heavies with CAT III "dual" or CAT III "land 2". This was put in the manual about 4 years ago if I remember right. I believe it was to keep the manual inline with OpSpec C052(b)(2) which states... "TDZ RVR reports, when available for a particular runway are controlling for all approaches to and landings on that runway."
 
At busier airports, with a constant stream of aircraft on the approach, guys often check in with tower and want the latest RVR, especially if it is near mins. Tower of course provides them with that information. I am sure all of us have been there when the RVR keeps fluctuating above and below mins, with the tower providing the latest to the guy checking on with tower.

My manual states that I may only descend below mins if the REPORTED visibility is greater than or equal to the required visibility. It says nothing about flight visibility. This for for CAT I, II,and III approaches, the only exception is for the heavies with CAT III "dual" or CAT III "land 2". This was put in the manual about 4 years ago if I remember right. I believe it was to keep the manual inline with OpSpec C052(b)(2) which states... "TDZ RVR reports, when available for a particular runway are controlling for all approaches to and landings on that runway."

In that case we turn the radios off FAF inbound.
 
Sounds like an interpretation issue. Sort of like the old argument about autopilot in RVSM - do you have to have it available in working order or actually have to have it engaged.
 
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