Renew aopa or not to renew?
- Thread starter sefro
- Start date
SlumTodd_Millionaire
Most Hated Member
Pay up!
Goonie
Never say die
For someone who hates airline management you sure are speaking a lot for them.
Do you honestly think if corporate had to pay user fees they would give y'all anymore pay??
WacoFan
Bigly
Wrong answer.
I would propose no user fees at all for any airplane with a piston engine. All lifeguard flights are free of user fees. Any corporate jet carrying Angel Flight or similiar organization patients exempt from fee for that flight. I hate user fees. What about Crop Dusters and Fire outfits?
Stone Cold
Well-Known Member
I have an even better idea. NO USER FEES. Make the airlines charge what it costs to do business. They said they couldn't raise fares...but magically $140/barrel of oil and they can raise fares. Hmmmm.
Stop trying to kill GA to protect your livelyhood that you yourself bought into to take a shortcut. Stop pulling up the ladder on the people in front of and in back of you. It's not all about you PCL, as much as you think it is. Once again, showing your true colors.
It's amazing how GA and corporate, according to the airlines is clogging everything up...how about all those stupid RJ's? We were number 30-something for takeoff at JFK when I left the states. I think I saw 1 bizjet. Who's clogging the NY airspace? TEB, MMU, and bizjets, or JFK, LGA, and EWR and the airlines?
Stop trying to kill GA to protect your livelyhood that you yourself bought into to take a shortcut. Stop pulling up the ladder on the people in front of and in back of you. It's not all about you PCL, as much as you think it is. Once again, showing your true colors.
It's amazing how GA and corporate, according to the airlines is clogging everything up...how about all those stupid RJ's? We were number 30-something for takeoff at JFK when I left the states. I think I saw 1 bizjet. Who's clogging the NY airspace? TEB, MMU, and bizjets, or JFK, LGA, and EWR and the airlines?
SlumTodd_Millionaire
Most Hated Member
No, but I think it would provide for an increase in job security. An industry that pays less in taxes has more latitude to operate their business. Taxes are strangling the airlines. The burden needs to be spread around.
I could accept that compromise.
surreal1221
Well-Known Member
They both are.
And airspace redesign is occuring in the New York Terminal area, as well as some significant adjustments to the enroute structure along the east coast.
No one segment of the industry is to blame for the nightmare that is the NYC terminal area.
Blame should be humbly accepted on each and every end, that includes corporate, airline, and the ATO.
Stone Cold
Well-Known Member
Seriously, I know you don't believe that Surreal. You thin there are hundreds and hundreds of ops into and out of TEB and MMU per hour like the airlines are doing? Oh yeah, we might as well add PHL to that since they are all the same Charlie Fox. Look at how many bizjets operate and how many airline operations there are. You're a smart guy. Don't buy into the airline mgmt line. Don't kill GA. You came from there, remember?!
Stone Cold
Well-Known Member
Funny, I thought it was the price of Jet A?! How much latitude should we give the airlines. If you can't operate your business knowing exactly how it's operated for the last 30 years, then shut the doors. Or develop a better business model and run with it. Don't ask for handouts...the airlines have already received how much bailout money, debts erased in bankruptcy, and special favors from communities to get the airline service into certain areas.
SlumTodd_Millionaire
Most Hated Member
It's not a "handout," it's fairness. The corporate operators need to pay their fair share. Time to stop leeching off of the airlines at their expense.
Speed Pilot
Brain Damaged
Renew. If for no other reason than to keep a check and balance so that the two sides have to compromise. If there's only one voice there will only be one way of doing things. Personally I hate the user fee idea but I'm biased and have no desire to fly 121 at this time.
It's a public use airspace system. More people use this public service flying on airliners than Flying themselves in bizjets or pistons. Therefore more taxes SHOULD be levied against the airlines than GA because that's how MOST of the public uses the system to get from point A to B.
A fair way might be to base user fees based on number of seats. Then you would be taxing according to public access to the system for that aircraft.
It's a public use airspace system. More people use this public service flying on airliners than Flying themselves in bizjets or pistons. Therefore more taxes SHOULD be levied against the airlines than GA because that's how MOST of the public uses the system to get from point A to B.
A fair way might be to base user fees based on number of seats. Then you would be taxing according to public access to the system for that aircraft.
stuckingfk
Well-Known Member
If the airlines had to pay the same price of gas that corporate operators have to, well let's just say the airlines would be out of business or they'd be forced to charge more for ticket prices.
Look up the price of Jet A in ASE, TEB, VNY, HDN, SUN, LAS, ect.
SlumTodd_Millionaire
Most Hated Member
The price of the gas isn't the issue. That's a supply/demand situation. The issue is how much tax burden is shared by the corporate operators. The amount of federal tax on a gallon of gas at TEB is the same amount of tax on a gallon of gas at ATL. But the 777 buys a lot more gallons than the Citation does. I consider that to be a problem since the Citation takes up the same resources as the 777 to go from point A to point B.
surreal1221
Well-Known Member
I'm not trying to kill GA.
I'm simply trying to shine the light that the mess that is PHL, EWR, LGA, JFK, TEB, MMU is not only due to Airline, or only due to Corporate, or General Aviation, traffic.
It's due to a Charlie Fox of an Air Traffic Organization that for the past 10 years have been able to allow our National Airspace System, and principally high traffic volume locations fall to the wayside by not implementing certain technological advancements that very well could have helped the traffic flow into and out of the New York/PHL Terminal areas.
So, once again. . .EACH user (Airlines, Corporate, General Aviation, and the Air Traffic Organization) must be humble enough to accept an appropriately sized piece of the pie to recognize the problem that they have ALL created.
I don't have to kill GA. The pricing out of people will kill it. Has been going on for decades. Nothing me or PCL_128 have done is anywhere close to the pricing out of the middle class from owning an aircraft when compared to two to three decades ago. The money just isn't there, and it's not going to drop into the laps of every starry-eyed person who wants to fly. Just the way it goes. User fees or not, we, individually, are not going to kill anything.
touch-n-go
Well-Known Member
Its funny that some here would even consider having a system like they have in Europe (JAA), where there is no GA. Most of these Europeans send their pilots to train here in the U.S precisely because of lower costs and less regulation. The lower costs here are attributable to the great work of organizations such as the AOPA.
Besides,if GA dried up here, airlines could be forced to do what they do in Europe which is to have ab-initio programes. Then, you could have the 300 hr wounders flying 737's like they do in Europe, as there would be no pool of GA pilots to hire from. Since many European airlines send their guys to train here in the U.S.A because its cheaper, I wounder where the U.S airlines would send their guys.
My point here is allowing GA to die in the U.S will have undesirable concequences for the aviation industry as a whole. So support the AOPA.
Besides,if GA dried up here, airlines could be forced to do what they do in Europe which is to have ab-initio programes. Then, you could have the 300 hr wounders flying 737's like they do in Europe, as there would be no pool of GA pilots to hire from. Since many European airlines send their guys to train here in the U.S.A because its cheaper, I wounder where the U.S airlines would send their guys.
My point here is allowing GA to die in the U.S will have undesirable concequences for the aviation industry as a whole. So support the AOPA.
Screaming_Emu
Joe Conventional
He doesn't want people to be able to go to places that are lowering the bar for the industry like DCA and Guflstre....wait...
surreal1221
Well-Known Member
You sure about the bolded part?
You see, the rest of your post really doesn't matter when you make a blatant false statement like that.
There is GA in Europe. It looks MUCH different than the free-spirit GA of the United States of America though. But there is General Aviation, everything from Gliders to Multi-Engine pistons. They're there.
Goonie
Never say die
Ya you have to be very wealthy to fly GA in Europe. A Seminole goes for about $700 per hour in most European countries. Then you can pay per landing fees on top of that. Sound fun??
touch-n-go
Well-Known Member
Obviously GA exists in Europe, however, it is not as big as it is in the States. It is not as widely accesable to people unless you are considerably wealthy.Thats not to say it is impossible for Europeans to fly GA, but it is so regulated and expensive that it makes aviation out of the reach for many.
This still does not change my original point. Many people who fly for a career in Europe are only able to do so because they were trained in some ab-initio program that proberbly sent them to the States for training, otherwise it would be very expensive and almost impossible for them to get their training.
surreal1221
Well-Known Member
Sound fun?
Of course not.
But that's significantly different than there is no GA in Europe. Clearly GA exists in Europe. Just pointing out that way out in left field exaggerations really don't work when trying to debate the merits of something.
Also, care to provide a source to your $700 USD figure for renting a Seminole in Europe? Considering the ridiculously sad state of the USD compared to the Euro, it is somewhat believable.
