Renew aopa or not to renew?

PCL_128 said:
I used the ATP exam as an example, but I'm not just talking about an ATP. I think any certificate/rating above a PVT should be far more difficult to achieve than it currently is. Getting to the point of having a Commercial Multi should not be as easy as it is now.
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Sure glad your not the one making the decisions, and hopeful that most dont seem to share your opinion on this.
 
PCL_128 said:
I do indeed. The quality of medical professionals is maintained at extremely high levels as a result.
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What you describe would lead to fewer medical professionals, resulting in fewer choices for patients, and more difficulty in getting medical care.

Not what I want.
 
While I'm a military pilot and a Part 121 pilot, I've been a member of AOPA since 1997 and plan to continue supporting them. I fly GA every now and then, but not nearly as much as I used to. No matter; I believe GA (AOPA and EAA) still deserves a voice--they're the foundation that got us all to where we are now, and I'm not about to let airline corporate executives get whatever they want in Washington.
 
I like everything the AOPA does. I fly under both part 135 and part 91, so GA is part of my livelihood and the AOPA represents my interests... even if I worked for an airline, I would continue to support them because I still like to fly for fun.

I dont understand how supporting the AOPA somehow makes you a supporter of lower training standards and whatever else was brought up in this thread. The correlation of who advertises in thier magazines and what the AOPA stands for is flat wrong... many of the same advertisers (like ATP) advertise here as well, so those arguments are ridiculous. If anything AOPA helps RAISE the standard of training here in the US. The AOPA Air Safety Foundation is a great example.

Comparing the FAA system to the JAA system is a fallacy. I have personally flown with and instructed JAA pilots when I was instructing and I can say first hand that they were absolutely no better than FAA certified pilots.

Anyway, carry on with the GA bashing. Maybe when you get furloughed you'll change your mind if you end up flying corporate or fractional... both GA, both benefit from the AOPA.
 
SIUav8er said:
Comparing the FAA system to the JAA system is a fallacy. I have personally flown with and instructed JAA pilots when I was instructing and I can say first hand that they were absolutely no better than FAA certified pilots.
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:yeahthat:That's a good point. I trained some JAA pilots at FSI that made me wonder how they ever got a license in the first place. A few of them were ATP rated.
 
Zero1Niner said:
What you describe would lead to fewer medical professionals, resulting in fewer choices for patients, and more difficulty in getting medical care.

Not what I want.
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You don't seem to understand. What I describe is already how it's been working in the medical field for a very long time. It's not a new idea. Medical schools and the AMA work together to set standards that keep most people out. The AMA works very hard to set high standards and limit the supply of incoming doctors.
 
Zero1Niner said:
What you describe would lead to fewer medical professionals, resulting in fewer choices for patients, and more difficulty in getting medical care.

Not what I want.
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Actually, what he has described has weeded out those who probably didn't belong in the medical profession in the first place. Americans are a lazy bunch, and many were only interested in paying their $150K in medical school tuition so they could get their associated Mercedes and country club membership. A friend's wife recently completed her residency, and commented on the alarming ratio of foreigners to Americans throughout her schooling. Our conclusion was that we don't want to work anymore. What PCL has described has indeed led to a body of more qualified healthcare professionals (and more foreigners, to be sure), willing to do the work.

If the same happens in aviation, we'll end up with a body of qualified individuals that actually want to be here, willing to do the work. Who knows, the professional ranks may even benefit :rolleyes:

All that being said, I've already let my Flying magazine subscription go, I will probably do the same with my AOPA membership next spring. I do like Flight Training magazine though, and I referenced it frequently when I was instructing. I'll still leaf through it whenever I'm at Barnes & Noble.

The jury is still out on Air Line Pilot Magazine. Not sure about that one yet....
 
surreal1221 said:
Yeah that $140'ish rate sounds more like the DA40 rate, and I think that was for a non-glass 40, which I was pretty sure they were getting rid of soon. The G1000 40's were in the $150'ish range.

Heard they have a new(er) 172 with G1000 on property too. . .might have to go check it out . . . but I would expect the pricing points to be similar to the Diamond 40's
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Yeah, I was mainly taking a look around to see what had changed since the "good ol' days" so I only briefly looked at the prices. I did see looking at the website yesterday that they had added a few 150s back to the fleet, probably because some people couldn't stomach paying that much money for a two seat aircraft. My cousin's wife solo'd there a few months ago

I flew one of Superior's G1000 172s a few weeks back and it was $160/hr for non-club members, $146/hr for club members. We've got a glass DA-40 at FTY, but its $152/hr.

The glass is nice and frankly wasn't that hard to get adjusted to (I've only flown aircraft with steam gauges), but it is a bit much for my budget right now. Perhaps when I find out something one way or the other from the FAA I can set aside some money to finish up my IR...until then, I'm just doing it to have fun and to take my neices flying. Getting my wife up there with me is another matter entirely. :D
 
SIUav8er said:
I dont understand how supporting the AOPA somehow makes you a supporter of lower training standards and whatever else was brought up in this thread. The correlation of who advertises in thier magazines and what the AOPA stands for is flat wrong... many of the same advertisers (like ATP) advertise here as well, so those arguments are ridiculous. If anything AOPA helps RAISE the standard of training here in the US. The AOPA Air Safety Foundation is a great example.

Comparing the FAA system to the JAA system is a fallacy. I have personally flown with and instructed JAA pilots when I was instructing and I can say first hand that they were absolutely no better than FAA certified pilots.

Anyway, carry on with the GA bashing. Maybe when you get furloughed you'll change your mind if you end up flying corporate or fractional... both GA, both benefit from the AOPA.
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:yeahthat:


I just can't be bothered to debate PCL on this subject because he really has no credibility where this is concerned.

I'll remain an AOPA member for life as it's money well spent to protect the ability to fly general aviation aircraft in America at reasonable cost. That's the bottom line.


Typhoonpilot
 
Capt. Caucasian said:
So, when a organization that supposedly represents something from my past has an agenda that would cause me harm I should support it it any way? And, last time I checked the Constitution, the right to fly was no where in there.

Barty,
I was an instructor at CCO and FFC the same time you were there. Were you the creepy guy with all the guns? And, you got your signature wrong. What annoys me is all of the conservatives that can't keep their hands out of my wallet.
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Well, I do own a couple of guns, but I don't know if I'm creepy. :insane:

I took lessons with Brad Smith (he and I were in the Scouts together) when I was at FFC and John Weaver for my IR when I moved over to CCO. I still flew with Brad occasionally afterwards, I just moved over to Newnan and got tired of fighting the Hwy 34/54 traffic to drive over to Peachtree City.

We're in agreement that the GOVERNMENT in general needs to keep their hands out of our wallets. I'm totally agnostic to political parties when it comes to that. It is just some of the other traits of liberals that annoy the hell out of me.
 
PCL_128 said:
I used the ATP exam as an example, but I'm not just talking about an ATP. I think any certificate/rating above a PVT should be far more difficult to achieve than it currently is. Getting to the point of having a Commercial Multi should not be as easy as it is now.
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Keep in mind that not everyone seeking a commercial ticket will ever exercise those privileges. For an aircraft owner, more ratings usually equals a lower insurance premium compared to someone with the same amount of time and nothing but a PPL/IR. Or it could be an aerial tour operator or someone doing flights for a charity.

If it is a matter of the pilots that are being brought on not being experienced enough, then that's a matter that the airlines need to address by raising their hiring standards. Now if this is a matter of a union thinking that wages are depressed because of the high number of available candidates...I don't know how to answer that one. I think the same thing that made the number of potential candidates explode is going to be the same thing that is going to cause the market to return to some kind of equilibrium, and that's cheap credit. If SallieMae and some of the other big lenders to flight students start getting more picky who they loan to and raise the cost of the money, the output from the pilot mills is going to slow down just as quickly.

I can tell you that the solution is NOT to raise the bar so high for an instrument rating or commercial ticket that it takes someone who intends on making a profession out of flying to be able to pass muster. If the FAA needs to do anything, it does need to update some of the tests, both written and practical, to better reflect some of the more recent changes in technology, such as glass cockpits, etc...
 
Barty said:
Well, I do own a couple of guns, but I don't know if I'm creepy. :insane:

I took lessons with Brad Smith (he and I were in the Scouts together) when I was at FFC and John Weaver for my IR when I moved over to CCO. I still flew with Brad occasionally afterwards, I just moved over to Newnan and got tired of fighting the Hwy 34/54 traffic to drive over to Peachtree City.

We're in agreement that the GOVERNMENT in general needs to keep their hands out of our wallets. I'm totally agnostic to political parties when it comes to that. It is just some of the other traits of liberals that annoy the hell out of me.
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Yup, I was there then as I remember both of those guys. I thought that you were someone else though. For some reason I had it in my head that you worked at FFC. Had that been the case then my comment about the guns would have been a little bit funnier. Some of us had WAY too much fun with an AR-15 and a Piper Seneca.:rawk: Did you know that the back doors are removable?
 
PCL_128 said:
No, we don't do things the same way in a jet. In fact, you don't even do things the same way in a turboprop. Our procedure in the 1900 was the same: max power, maintain altitude. Altitude loss is considered unacceptable. This isn't a problem if you aren't an altitude where you have no excess thrust. When you get yourselves into a situation where the airplane isn't designed to be operated, due to lack of knowledge and proper training, procedure ceases to be helpful. The pilots did exactly as they were trained: throttles to the stops, maintain altitude. The Captain is even heard on the CVR saying to "maintain altitude." That is what we are trained, and for good reason.



First, the airplane wasn't stalled all the way to the ground. They recovered and glided for over 100 miles. Second, as a CFI, you should be aware of how pilots react in emergency situations. In an emergency, people will do as they were trained. When the shaker and then the pusher activates, you will do exactly as you were trained. In this case, that means max thrust and hold altitude. We even follow the flight director, which will attempt to keep you at your set altitude. People aren't going to react differently under duress than they would in the training environment. They revert to their training. That's exactly why we beat this stuff into pilots' heads over and over again in the sim. We want it to be instinctual. And now you expect someone to react differently than they were trained? As a CFI, you should know better.
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So are you advocating installing procedure monkeys in airplanes? A computer would have done just as good as the crew, by solely following procedures.

Airlines pay pilots for critical thinking when crap hits the fan. There is a reason that computers dont fly around our families.

Captain Haynes used his head to come up with a way to get the airplane to the airport. Had to throw procedures out the window, and think.

Critcical thinking says, OK I followed the procedure, that was full power, maintain altitude. Now I'm slow, full power, high AOA, and a decreasing airspeed. What is going to happen if I continue? Its going to stall. Swept wing jet stalls are bad. How do I make this airplane fly?

I understand in an IFR environment separation is of utmost importance. However, there is little harm in calling up center "FLG3701 unable to maintain altitude can we go back to FL370"

Descend back to FL370, nobody would have ever heard of 3701, laughing at the immaturity of the crew (others, not me), and making an internet spectacle out of the accident.

As for the crew Jesse flew scenic flights at BHB back in the 90's, while I never met him, several people at the airport have, and spoke very highly of him. Through this accident, it reinforced to me, and something that I reinforce to my students, that a few bad judgments, and a lack of thinking, can get you into a world of hurt.
 
Capt. Caucasian said:
Yup, I was there then as I remember both of those guys. I thought that you were someone else though. For some reason I had it in my head that you worked at FFC. Had that been the case then my comment about the guns would have been a little bit funnier. Some of us had WAY too much fun with an AR-15 and a Piper Seneca.:rawk: Did you know that the back doors are removable?
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Nah, I never worked there in an official capacity. I did trade Kim (that was the owner's name, right?) some computer work at the school for some flight time, but that was about it.

I think I recall Brad telling me about the Seneca, I say that because I recall him making a comment about removing the door. I'll have to ask him about it the next time I talk to him. Of course I think almost everyone that worked there or flew there under the age of 30 was always involved in some kind of harmless fun. He always joked around with me about practicing turns around a point over some hunting property down near Senoia so he could do some aerial deer hunting. Ahh...the stories I could tell...

I don't know if you ever heard about this, but I was the one that had the carb heat cable break on 19198 down at AUO right after my PPL checkride.
 
"The correlation of who advertises in thier magazines and what the AOPA stands for is flat wrong... many of the same advertisers (like ATP) advertise here as well, so those arguments are ridiculous."

Once again, I'm not seeing that AOPA is worth a dime. If you want to support GA, support EAA. I'm a proud supporter of EAA and their mag isn't full of ads from BS flight academies. You can call it ridiculous, but one ATP ad is the same as another. AOPA, JC, they both suck. Seeing the ATP ads at JC doesn't make me happy, but at least I can have a voice against what I consider wrong about the ATP ads by being here. And JC doesn't cost me a friggen dime.
 
Nihon_Ni said:
..... Does that mean that AOPA should refuse career pilot schools & colleges from advertising in their magazines? This site also does business with such companies......
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Nothing will ever change until someone decides to set a precedent.....so Yes.
 
OldTownPilot said:
So are you advocating installing procedure monkeys in airplanes?
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I'm not "advocating" anything, I'm discussing human nature. This is FOI stuff, my friend. If you're an instructor, you should know this stuff by heart. I haven't taken an FOI written or CFI practical in 7 years, but I can still remember the basics.

Captain Haynes used his head to come up with a way to get the airplane to the airport. Had to throw procedures out the window, and think.
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Captain Haynes didn't "throw procedures out the window." As a true professional, I'm sure he would take great offense at such a comment. He was presented with a situation that had no procedure, so he made up his own.

Critcical thinking says, OK I followed the procedure, that was full power, maintain altitude. Now I'm slow, full power, high AOA, and a decreasing airspeed. What is going to happen if I continue? Its going to stall. Swept wing jet stalls are bad. How do I make this airplane fly?
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Your inexperience is really showing here. The time to go through this thought process that you describe simply didn't exist. The shaker went off, almost immediately followed by the pusher. A pusher activating in a jet aircraft at altitude is a violent event. The pusher activated numerous times. Time to stop and think did not exist. Instinct was all they had, and their instincts had been trained to fly the procedure. The procedure created a deep stall in a swept-wing, t-tailed jet. Such an event is usually unrecoverable. Amazingly, they did recover in less than 7,000 ft.

I understand in an IFR environment separation is of utmost importance. However, there is little harm in calling up center "FLG3701 unable to maintain altitude can we go back to FL370"
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Read the transcript. They were requesting lower, right before the aircraft stalled.

Mariano said:
Someone correct me if I'm wrong, but I think he is (Oldtownpilot) a student pilot with a Ground Instructor certificate.
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Even if he is just an AGI, he should still know the FOI material.
 
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