Instrument 50hr X/C PIC requirement

PGT

Well-Known Member
I'm starting my instrument training in 3 weeks but as of today I only have 8 hours XC PIC time. I have access to a 152 for $60/hr. so should I just take that and fly home from college every other day (250nm one way) until I get close to 50 hours?

How much (if any) X/C PIC time will I get during my instrument training?
 
Ask your instructor. He may want to do a majority of your instrument training as a series of cross countries, which isn't a bad idea.
 
I usually say if you build up about 25-30 hrs of X-C you should be good to start your training. You can easily get the rest through the instrument rating (just make sure you land after that approach!). This way you can focus on the training and approaches and not so much on just the cross country time. And assuming it takes you 3 hours to fly home and 3 hours to fly back you would only have to make that round trip about 4 times to get the time you need. Assuming it takes you 3 hours to fly home and 3 hours to fly back you would only have to make that trip about 4 times to build your time up. Hope this helps!
 
During your instrument training, you will have to prove efficiency in several areas with your instructor, to include, flying within PTS standards, unusual attitude recovery, tracking, holding, and Instrument approaches. When you practice these with your instructor, do them on the way to an airport 50 nm away, killing two birds with one stone. If after you have your required instrument hours and have covered the subject matter with your instructor, fly with a safety pilot to build the remaining PIC XC time and save some money. This is a way to be cost effective in your training.
 
Thanks for the replies! However, how could I log PIC time if my instructor is with me? (XC with him or flying out more than 50nm for practice)
 
Thanks for the replies! However, how could I log PIC time if my instructor is with me? (XC with him or flying out more than 50nm for practice)

You can log PIC time when you're the sole manipulator of the controls of an airplane for which you are rated. That doesn't change with an instructor on board.

As for your original question, I recommend getting at least 35-40 hours PIC on your own. You will get some on your instrument training, but how much depends on the instructor. Yes, it's possible that you could get 40 hours or more, if you planned it right, but I don't find that very productive for the student. You need to build up a certain amount of technical skill in flying instrument approaches, holds, etc, and that doesn't happen on straight and level enroute flying. You may end up spending more time on your instrument rating if you expect it to provide you with X/C time too. That time is likely to be more expensive than solo time in a C152.
 
Keep in mind that if you do your rating under Part 141 the 50 hour requirement is no longer applicable. But, $60/hr, assuming it's wet, is a good rental rate for a 152. I fly at one of the cheapest FBOs in WA, and a 152 is $80/hr. If you can find someone willing to fly with you and split costs, it's certainly a no-brainer--go for it! Doing my instrument training, I picked up about 16 x-c hours, so using that as a baseline you'd be on the hook for about 26 more hours of x-c PIC outside your training.
 
PIC

I second what Tgrayson said.

Some of the instrument rating can be combined with XC flights so that you can partly kill two birds with one stone. However, there are cheaper ways to get the 50 hours since you'd have to be paying for an instructor.

This is your chance to have some fun, too. Take a friend along for the ride each weekend or something. Take someone up to someplace 50 miles away for lunch.

Plus, I think it's good to get out on your own a bit and truly be the only one making the decisions. Sure you are the only one manipulating the controls when doing instrument work with a CFI in the right seat, but to go up solo or with a passenger probably forces you to think a bit more since you know the CFI isn't there to save the day.
 
If you want to get a little bit of the requirement out visiting friends or family, thats fine, but (at least with us) you will certainly log plenty of cross country during your instrument training- with the added advantage that those cross country hours will be under the IFR environment, which I think is fantastic experience.
 
Most of the Instrument students I get are fresh off the PPL and almost invariably have 10 or less XC PIC. I give them the option to do it themselves or do it with me and spell out exactly how much more it will cost them having me in the plane, around $600 more. Most choose flying with me.

It actually makes it nice because it gives us a chance to do a lot of cross country which is exactly what the IFR rating is for. Once I get them good on flying by instruments pretty much all we do is IFR cross countries so they get the most exposure to the IFR system I can give them. I think that is the biggest thing that I did not get during my instrument training, having done pretty much the bare minimum IFR flight plan flights. I could fly by instruments fine, but negotiating the IFR environment was a steep learning curve for me; after getting the rating.
 
Once I get them good on flying by instruments pretty much all we do is IFR cross countries so they get the most exposure to the IFR system I can give them.
I think you are very wise. IFR training tends to be so approach-centric that enroute navigation - which sounds so basic and easy - often gets shorted.

I had something like that happen to me. I was trained in the northeast and, even on my required IFR cross country, it was pretty much vectors all around. Day after I got my ticked I headed into solid IMC for a flight from Connecticut to Long Island. Halfway across the sound, ATC called:

"Cessna 195. Radar contact lost. Report XXXXX intersection."

Huh??!! Intersection? Was I supposed to be keeping track of this? Never had to before!

So I unfolded the chart and stated looking for the intersection After recovering from the unusual attitude, I was about to confess when ATC came back on:

"Cessna 195. Radar contact 7 miles from XXXX."
 
IFR training tends to be so approach-centric that enroute navigation - which sounds so basic and easy - often gets shorted.

That and a lot of the time I see IR students that fly the same three approaches again and again and again. But you get them to a new airport and they can't even read the plate. I think a lot of it has to do with a mentality of training towards passing a checkride rather than making a qualified IFR pilot. I know that is what I was trained for.

I have failed a quite few students on the stage exam when I load the first approach I turn to.
 
ok one more 'can I log that...'question

If my instructor and I are doing a X/C and it's in actual IMC then I would not be able to log PIC since I'm not IFR rated? what about simulated?
 
ok one more 'can I log that...'question

If my instructor and I are doing a X/C and it's in actual IMC then I would not be able to log PIC since I'm not IFR rated? what about simulated?

You can log PIC anytime you are sole manipulator of the controls with category and class ratings. And you can log IMC if that is the conditions of flight.
 
You can log PIC anytime you are sole manipulator of the controls with category and class ratings. And you can log IMC if that is the conditions of flight.
Absolutely correct. Category and class (and type if it matters) ratings for logging PIC. Actual instrument conditions for logging actual. Night for logging night. =Nothing= else counts.

Yes, PGT, you get to log both PIC and actual instrument on that flight.
 
That's what I thought but here is what I got from my instructor:

"If we were in the clouds on an IFR plan then you would not since you are not rated for IFR but otherwise, if you are current and rated for the flight and aircraft you would log both."
 
That's what I thought but here is what I got from my instructor:

"If we were in the clouds on an IFR plan then you would not since you are not rated for IFR but otherwise, if you are current and rated for the flight and aircraft you would log both."

An instrument rating is not required for logging actual IMC. 61.51(g):

(g) Logging instrument flight time.

(1) A person may log instrument time only for that flight time when the person operates the aircraft solely by reference to instruments under actual or simulated instrument flight conditions.
 
Who's your instrument instructor?

They gave you the incorrect answer. You can log the actual IMC. You'll also log the dual given, so anyone looking at your logbook will know what was going on and won't question why you logged actual IMC before you had your instrument rating.

Mike
 
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