Instrument 50hr X/C PIC requirement

[CoffeeIcePapers]

That's what I thought but here is what I got from my instructor:

"If we were in the clouds on an IFR plan then you would not since you are not rated for IFR but otherwise, if you are current and rated for the flight and aircraft you would log both."

Your instructor is confusing being rated for the aircraft, which is what 61.51 is talking about, and having a rating on your certificate.

From MidLife's FAQ page:

Rule 1. If you are a recreational, private or commercial pilot, you may log PIC any time you are the sole manipulator of the controls of an aircraft you are rated for. [61.51(e)(1)(i)] "Rated" means the category and class (and type, if a type rating is necessary for the aircraft) that is listed on the back of your pilot certificate. Nothing else matters. Not instrument ratings. Not endorsements for high performance, complex, or tailwheel aircraft. Not medical currency. Not flight reviews. Not night currency. Nothing. There are no known exceptions. Note that the rule is different for sport pilots who have endorsed "privileges" for aircraft in their logbooks insetad of ratings on their pilot certifciates.

Don't take this as him not being a good instructor, he is just passing down what he was taught.

 

[flyinguitar]

I agree with all the folks saying that you will benefit from additional IFR X-C training, and that the IFR training requirements can come up a bit short in this department depending on the student.

However, if you are on a budget, I would strongly recommend researching a part 141 program. It will save you lots of flying by not requiring 50 hrs PIC X-C. As long as you train with attention to quality, you shouldn't worry about being unprepared once you get your ticket. You'll be fine!

It's just a matter of whether you want to pay extra for extra experience. Will you benefit? Of course. Is it necessary given the availability of part 141 programs? No!

 

[flyinguitar]

A second thought: I would strongly recommend that you do do your IFR training in a location where approach radar is available and the ATC workload is light enough that they can accommodate blocks of airspace (for airwork), holding, and multiple approaches under IFR (by which I mean with a filed flight plan and ATC clearance.)

If you don't do your training in such an environment you can still become a perfectly safe and competent IFR pilot, but anticipate a bit steeper of a learning curve when you head out on your own after getting your ticket. In such a situation extra X-C time, if flown under IFR with your instructor, would be particularly helpful.

 

[MidlifeFlyer]

That's what I thought but here is what I got from my instructor:

"If we were in the clouds on an IFR plan then you would not since you are not rated for IFR but otherwise, if you are current and rated for the flight and aircraft you would log both."

One of the benefits of online forums is that pilots and CFIs get exposed to information that they don't see otherwise. That seems to be especially true when it comes to the logging regulations. They have not historically been discussed in detail as part of pilot or CFI training (it's beginning to change). I was at a live FIRC in 7-8 years ago and the No. 1 difficulty that CFIs had with the regs was 61.51.

Here's the real instructor test. Show him this and see how he reacts:

==============================
OCT. 28, 1980

WINSTON SCOTT JONES

Dear Mr. Jones:

This is in response to your letter in which you request an interpretation of Section 61.51(2)(c) of the Federal Aviation Regulations, regarding logging of pilot-in-command (PIC) flight time.

Specifically, you ask what time may be logged as PIC time when the pilot in the right seat is a certificated flight instructor (CFI) along for the purpose of instruction and is not a required crewmember, and the pilot in the left seat holds either a private or commercial certificate in an aircraft for which he is rated.

Section 61.51 is a flight-time logging regulation, under which PIC time may be logged by one who is not actually the pilot in command (i.e., not "ultimately" responsible for the aircraft) during that time. This is consistent with the purpose of Section 61.51, which as stated in 61.51(a) is to record aeronautical training and experience used to meet the requirements for a certificate or rating, or the recent flight experience requirements of Section 61.

Section 61.51(c)(2)(i) provides that a private or commercial pilot may log as pilot-in-command time only that flight time during which the pilot--

1. Is the sole manipulator of the controls of an aircraft for which he is rated; or

2. Is the sole occupant of the aircraft; or

3. Acts as pilot-in-command of an aircraft on which more than one pilot is required under the type certification of the aircraft, or the regulations under which the flight is conducted.

Under Section 61.51(c)(2)(iii) a certificated flight instructor may log as pilot-in-command time all flight time during which he or she acts as a flight instructor. Sections 61.51(b)(2)(iii) and (iv) provide for logging of flight instruction and instrument flight instruction received.

Accordingly, two or more pilots may each log PIC time for the same flight time. For example, a pilot who is the sole manipulator of the controls of an aircraft for which he or she is rated may log that time as PIC time under 61.51(c)(2)(i) while receiving instruction, and the instructor may log that same time as PIC time under 61.51(c)(2)(iii).

There is no provision in the FAR's for logging of "dual" flight time; however, we assume that you are referring to logging time as instruction received. Section 61.51(b)(2)(iii) and (iv) allow flight instruction and instrument instruction received time to be recorded. There is nothing in the FAR's which prevents a pilot from logging the same time as both instruction received and PIC time, as long as each requirement is met. The pilot may also log the same time as instrument instruction. Note, though, that one hour of flight logged both as one hour of PIC and one hour of instruction received still adds up to only one hour total flight time.

You request interpretations of these regulations for situations in which:

1. The purpose of the flight is instruction in advanced maneuvers.

2. The purpose of the flight is simulated instrument instruction in actual VFR conditions.

3. The purpose of the flight is instrument instruction actual IFR conditions.

4. The pilot in the left seat is not current in the aircraft or in the conditions of flight.

5. The purpose of the flight is transition from tricycle to conventional landing gear.

6. The purpose of the flight is obtaining logbook endorsement authorizing operation of a high performance aircraft, as required by FAR 61.31(e).

7. The purpose of the flight is transition to a different type aircraft of the same category and class for which the left seat pilot is rated and a type rating is not required.

In each situation, the CFI may log PIC time for all flight time during which she or he acts as flight instructor. The pilot receiving instruction may also log PIC time in each of these situations, as the pilot is the sole manipulator of the controls of an aircraft for which she or he is rated. Specifically, neither the currency requirements of situation 4 nor the log book endorsement of situation 6 are ratings within the meaning of Section 61.51. "Rating" as used in that section refers to the rating in categories, classes, and types, as listed in Section 61.5, which are placed on pilot certificates.

We trust that this discussion answers your questions.

Sincerely,

EDWARD P. FABERMAN
Acting Assistant Chief Counsel
==============================

 

[deek]

I'm a little more than half way with my instrument rating now. We do a lot of XC to different airports so I get some exposure to approach and departure procedures, as well I'm being forced to read the approaches at the different airports so I don't know just the ones by my home airport. Saturday we did a long XC from Houston to Lafayette, LA and I did a SAR approach into Beaumont Regional, that was pretty cool, I highly recommend it if you get a chance.
But I also do some XC on my own, flying friends around for lunch, or even have another friend who is doing his instrument and we split time doing to sim-inst XC flights.