CFI/Student Meal Etiquette

I had a case once where a student asked if we could go to a place for his commercial dual XC where there was this restaurant he liked to go to (guy used to live in this town apparently). I agreed and we were going to do Dutch. What he failed to tell me was that the restaurant was a fancy Trout House right on the lake where the cheapest thing on the menu was a $16 plate of spaghetti. I just about made him fly an extra hour away from home before returning so I might actually profit from the trip we made.
 
I usually assume it is dutch, unless the student says they'll get it... usually the student does...

But at a school I used to work at, we actually had an "expense account" when on a dual XC so that we could buy the student's lunch. We just had to bring back the receipt and we got reimbursed for the meal.
 
I had a case once where a student asked if we could go to a place for his commercial dual XC where there was this restaurant he liked to go to (guy used to live in this town apparently). I agreed and we were going to do Dutch. What he failed to tell me was that the restaurant was a fancy Trout House right on the lake where the cheapest thing on the menu was a $16 plate of spaghetti. I just about made him fly an extra hour away from home before returning so I might actually profit from the trip we made.

Haha! Ya know, it's good to practice diversion procedures on those commercial XCs...
 
In response to the OP, my usual protocol is that I plan on going dutch if the student doesn't say anything in advance. If they offer to pay, I'll certainly take them up on the offer. And I never offer to pay for them, partially because CFIs don't get paid big bucks and partially because I'm a cheapskate.

As a matter of etiquette, I think the student ought to at least offer to pay, but I don't get bent out of shape if they don't offer.

As a matter of logic, it seems that if a student is smart they'd pay for the CFI's dinner. Paying for dinner is a relatively easy way to stay on the CFI's good side, get some free instruction, etc. It prevents situations like PanJet's where the CFI gets pissed and wants to find reasons to make more off the student.
 
Try to enjoy life. I don't charge the students for time during meals. I always go dutch unless they offer to pay and I am reluctant to just let them. Nearly all of my students I am friends with. Hey listen, your not losing money by not flying, your just delaying when you make money. The student needs a set amount of hours, you'll get them eventually, unless they quit. For some reason, as a CFI, I don't feel poor! Even with a Sallie Mae loan from ATP.
 
You know i'm so glad that i never had an instructor who is a freeloader like some of you on this thread. Why on earth should i pay for your meal? I'm paying you enough already for coming along with me on my cross country, i'm paying enough for your ground work and now i have to feed you as well? The time spent with me gets to be in your logbook making you one step closer to having the experience required for a regional job. What more do you want?

I am just a few hours away from my CPL and if in my past training an instructor insisted that i bought him lunch, then it will be the last time we flew. If i offer that is a different story but don't expect me to do it. Ye maybe from time to time its a good gesture to thank your instructor for all the help and effort, but that instructor is being paid for it and it's not a favor. It's a job. Stop charging your students lunch you freeloading CFIs.:D
 
You are way off track. We are not talking about an instructor asking or forcing the student to stop at an airport for lunch. The way I look at it, we only stop for fuel or bathroom breaks if I am on the clock. My goal is to provide quality instruction, complete the lesson in an efficient manner, and then get back to the airport so I can see my next student. Stopping for lunch is unproductive and cuts into my working day. I was a brown bagger and ate in between students.

We are talking about the student who insist on stopping at an airport for the $100 hamburger.
 
You know i'm so glad that i never had an instructor who is a freeloader like some of you on this thread. Why on earth should i pay for your meal? I'm paying you enough already for coming along with me on my cross country, i'm paying enough for your ground work and now i have to feed you as well?

I'd like to hear if you hold this same opinion after working as a CFI for a while.

Not saying you're wrong, but after working long hours with consistently small pay checks, you might begin to see why a lot of these "freeloader" CFIs see things the way they do.

From the tone of your post, it sounds as though you've had some less than ideal instructors in the past, such as instructors who were just using you to build time and get paid--basically, selfish instructors. Maybe they just sat there and collected a pay check without teaching you much on your cross countries. If that was the case, sorry it worked that way for you. Be careful not to assume all instructors are like that, though.

The time spent with me gets to be in your logbook making you one step closer to having the experience required for a regional job.

How about for the guys like me who are teaching because we enjoy teaching and need to make a living, not build time? I couldn't care less about flight time anymore. Flight time is merely incidental to my work as a teacher. Flight time does not count as payment and I consider it rather short-sighted to say it does.
 
I can't pay rent with my flight time and I can't buy food by showing the cashier my logbook totals. I hate people that use the "you are building flight time" as an excuse to pay low wages.
 
I'm paying you enough already for coming along with me on my cross country

What YOUR instructor should be saying is:
"Yeah, thanks to you for taking me on this super great cross country to no where. I haven't been to this airport since Thursday. I am sooo lucky to have students like you! Also, I think you are paying me way too much for my time, how about I give you a discount?"

Right?

BTW, I occasionally go dutch but when I do there isn't a chance the subject will turn to flight training. sorry!
 
Gentlemen, i understand flight instructing is probably your only source of income but please have a conscious that flight training in itself is very expensive and it only puts a bigger dent in your student's wallet to full your stomach, which to me is 100% ridiculous!! Flying makes you both hungry and very tired. If a student does a cross country with you it's perfectly normal for him/her to get a decent meal so they can be more productive on their flight and not waste their time and money.

To jrh, so far in my training i have only had two flight instructors. The frist one was 50 years old and my current is 68. I prefer older guys to teach me because i personally feel i can learn a lot more and not have to worry about them leaving to fly a shiney jet while half way through my training. Both of them signed me off as soon as they saw i can do the manuveurs and not try to stretch out my training to full their pockets. My current flight instructor is just like you. He isn't doing this for the money or to build hours. He is a self made millionaire who is a veteran of the US army and just teaches for fun.

All i am saying to these guys is have a conscious. I am very close to my CPL and when i do go for my CFIs i'll never charge ridiculous fees as some instructors do. If me and my student are together for 4 hours and i only do one hour of ground, then i'll charge them for 1 hour and not 4 because it's "my time". Infact i won't even charge anything for close friends or family, or people in general who i'd like to help.
 
Gentlemen, i understand flight instructing is probably your only source of income but please have a conscious that flight training in itself is very expensive and it only puts a bigger dent in your student's wallet to full your stomach, which to me is 100% ridiculous!!

I don't mean to sound like a jerk, but I'll be completely blunt--it's not my problem that flying is expensive. I wish everybody could afford it, but that's not the reality of flying these days. I'm not going to cut my own financial well-being because I feel sorry that a particular customer is having a hard time paying for their training. Some people have the resources to pay for it, some don't. That's life.

Will I try to rip them off? Of course not. I do everything I can to make every lesson as productive, efficient, and cost effective as possible. I pack as much learning in to each session as possible.

But to say I should cut breaks to people because flying is already expensive enough does not make sense to me.

To jrh, so far in my training i have only had two flight instructors. The frist one was 50 years old and my current is 68. I prefer older guys to teach me because i personally feel i can learn a lot more and not have to worry about them leaving to fly a shiney jet while half way through my training. Both of them signed me off as soon as they saw i can do the manuveurs and not try to stretch out my training to full their pockets. My current flight instructor is just like you. He isn't doing this for the money or to build hours. He is a self made millionaire who is a veteran of the US army and just teaches for fun.

That's great, I'm glad you've found good quality instructors to work with.

However, it's important to understand that the types of instructors who are willing to cut so many corners in order to give cheap instruction are rarities. It's great that you found them, but don't get upset that most instructors are not like the ones you've found.

I'd also like to clarify a point bluntly--aside from a love of teaching, I doubt I'm much like your current instructor. I'm not independently wealthy and I have financial obligations to take care of. I make my living as an instructor. As in--if I don't work as an instructor, I don't eat or have a roof over my head.

I don't mean to sound harsh, I'm just trying to drive home the point that even though I love teaching, I love my job, I want to be a nice guy, I want to help people out as much as I can, etc. (as most good instructors probably do), at the end of the day, I do this to support myself, not play around all day at the airport for free.

I've developed this mindset after literally years of previously getting used and abused as a CFI. I've found a way to be successful at what I do, but my plan only works if I draw lines and stick to them. That's the only way I can do what I love, plus not be homeless.

All i am saying to these guys is have a conscious. I am very close to my CPL and when i do go for my CFIs i'll never charge ridiculous fees as some instructors do. If me and my student are together for 4 hours and i only do one hour of ground, then i'll charge them for 1 hour and not 4 because it's "my time". Infact i won't even charge anything for close friends or family, or people in general who i'd like to help.

That's fine, nothing wrong with that if you're willing to do those things. Just don't expect every other instructor in the industry to follow along.
 
What to bill during cross-country flights is something I thought about a lot when I was starting as a CFI. The requirements for PPL cross-country flying can be done in 3 hr blocks so we're not really talking about a lengthy effort here. I generally schedule pre-solo lessons for 2-3 hr blocks, so cross-country training isn't much out of the ordinary. All we have to do is fly to an airport 50+ miles away and make a landing. (It can even be a touch and go, although I generally have guys make a full stop landing and taxi back to the runway to give them time to shift nav logs—unless we are going to stop and shut down.)

My basic policy is if a pilot schedules me for X number of hours, I will do my best to fill that time with the best quality instruction I can provide and I will charge them for the whole period, unless I decide to quit early. I view myself as the pilot's employee, and I don't spend time checking my email or talking on the phone while someone else is paying for my attention. The pilot prevented me from selling my time for that period to another pilot, so I generally try to instruct him for the full time period. This certainly isn't all in the air, nor does it have to be in the classroom. Learning can take place anywhere the two of us are together. If a pilot decides that he wants to stop to have lunch after a 50 mile flight, I'm under no obligation to 1. eat anything, or 2. discount the time we spend eating from his bill. I don’t consider this being a freeloader. He obligated himself to me when he scheduled me for the block of time, and I’m obligated to give him my full attention for that same time period. If he wants to include extra time so he can have a rest, that’s fine with me, but he can’t obligate me to take a rest for no pay. I’m still on the clock and I’m still available exclusively to him for the whole block and I’m still charging him for it.

Now, having said that, I do make exceptions. I am not a full-time CFI and I don't rely on it as a means to make a living. There are CFIs at my school who do, and in fairness to all the students (and my own time), I try to adhere to my above position so a student whose CFI is a full-time guy doesn't feel like he's getting ripped off because I don't charge my students for the whole time we spend together.

Aside from teaching pilots the mechanics of flight, I also want to instill in them the love of aviation that I have. I do that on my own dime. Going in search of the $100 hamburger is a great way to do that. If that means I spend an extra hour with a student at an airport eating and looking at airplanes, then I'm happy to do that. Flight training can be a long and arduous process for a student, and an experience like this can go a long way to helping him see the benefit for all the work he's doing. From a business model, time I spend motivating a student I already have is less time I have to spend looking for a new student to replace one who just dropped out.

Personally, when it's time for a cross-country, I look for something like a pancake breakfast, a local fly-in, an airport with a restaurant on the field, or (last resort) an FAA seminar. I generally schedule a 4+ hour block of time, but I bill don’t bill for the time we spend at the cross-country field. I also don’t expect my student to pay for my lunch, and instead I will generally treat the student to a meal. Again, I have another source of income and I do this part of cross-country experience for the love of aviation. That’s a luxury that not every CFI can afford, nor should any student expect it. If I spend 100 hours of flight & ground with a student teaching him to be a pilot, he (hopefully) received exactly what he paid for: 100 hrs of quality instruction. He isn’t owed a free lunch because he wanted to learn to fly and it took 100 hrs for him to learn. I buy him lunch because I want him to experience some of the thrills of general aviation that are outside of the lesson plan.

The other point I’d like to make is that there are a number of CFIs who have weighed in with a, “When you get to be a CFI you’ll understand” line of defense. The truth is, most students won’t become CFIs and even if they do, CFIs have to always remember what it was like to be a student and approach things from the customer’s perspective. Flight training is a service industry, and taking that approach as a defense is not good service. Most of the problems that cause “freeloader” perspectives come from mismanaged expectations. If service providers avoid the uncomfortable business of talking about the fees they charge, then the customer is left to develop his own expectations. All of this sets up conflict. I make it a point (and I know most CFIs do) to talk with students on our very first lesson about how I charge and what they can expect from me when they make a reservation. As with anything else, just because I told them once doesn’t mean they completely understand it, and I’m as guilty as the next CFI of not revisiting my billing policy often enough to make certain its clear.
 
JHR and Nihon Ni have both said some really great things and I think I fall right in between them. There are a few airports that I love to visit and wander down to the beach or look at some airplanes.

I won't be giving any deals myself until I can find a grocery store, a gas station, a Doctor, an insurance company, a dentist, a real estate agent and a bank who are all able to also give me a 'deal because it is expensive enough as it is.'

Retired instructors that are doing it for the fun of it are really sticking it to those of us who need to make a living. If I started driving semi trucks on the weekend because it was fun the Teamsters would have my head on a post in a minute. I don't care how much money you have, or how much you like doing it, don't give away your time!

I have a tough time also discounting friends or disadvantaged people. Subliminally I know that it affects the quality of the training I provide. If I am there doing the same thing but getting paid less then the next guy pays, sorry, it just isn't going to be the same quality. I don't want it to be this way but I will be.
 
after reading through some of these posts, it seems like getting to know the student and then applying some common sense would do good in these situations. When I was instructing full time I'd know which students were likely to want the "fun" flights (ie; going to museums, fly in golfing, and of course the $100 hamburger), and those that would only like to learn how to pass a check ride to get to the license. I had plenty of both, and plenty in between. I myself would prefer to take a student who wants to go fly and stop and enjoy the flying community( I'll always chose play over work, I follow the life's too short might as well have some fun now). My thought on the billing was always the adage of give a little get a little. Giving the student a break on not nickel and diming every little aspect of my time has come through to pay me back quite a bit more in the long run, from getting a computer saved and fixed better then new or tickets to events, it usually comes around for the better.

And hasn't anyone heard of how it typically goes in the non flying corporate world, whoever has the biggest pay check pays? how often is that us the cfi?? :) I half way joke here but it is kinda true. A young student flying on loans I have no problem picking up a check but most of the time flying with those who have a solid job doing this for fun are almost always likely to pick up the check for me. and yeah its a good time to get some ground work in but its a better time to get to know the student. Don't get me wrong, this isn't an always or every student type of deal. This philosophy has worked for me in the couple years I have been doing this.
 
As an instructor I always tried to pay for my students meal. Its only a couple bucks and I make money off them. I never did go into instructing to make money, I left a much higher paying job to teach, and I loved it.


When I was a student my favorite instructor insisted on buying me meals. He was an instructor who wasn't instructing for the money or to build time, and the one that inspired me to become an instructor... Then of course I had the instructors who all they did was complain about their pay and how instructing sucked, and how sweet the airlines were.

Edit: Oh.. and in the long run like TDoc said, It pays in the long run not to try and get every nickel you can from them. Just yesterday one of my old Indian student from Oklahoma got an airline job in India and called me and offered to buy me tickets and pay all my expenses to enjoy a vacation in India!
 
To jrh, so far in my training i have only had two flight instructors. The frist one was 50 years old and my current is 68. I prefer older guys to teach me because i personally feel i can learn a lot more and not have to worry about them leaving to fly a shiney jet while half way through my training. Both of them signed me off as soon as they saw i can do the manuveurs and not try to stretch out my training to full their pockets.

You're still being a bit short sighted. My MEI ride was the first checkride I took that wasn't signed off by old cowboy who soloed me. I consider myself to be very fortunate to have the same guy through the majority of my training. He learned to fly shortly after they invented the wheel and he has more experience than 99% of the people on this board. Nearly every lesson we would fly someplace for breakfast, lunch or dinner and we always flipped for it. Sure, it added an extra $7 to the cost of the lesson sometimes but the experience I gained was priceless. I felt obligated to buy his lunch every time because of the stories he told and the information he passed along during those meals.

I'm sure you're a dedicated student but if you've only had two great CFI's then how can you justify smearing us younger guys as freeloaders and charlatans? If I had one critique of my older CFI its that he was too lax sometimes because "he's seen it all". The older guys weren't drilled over and over about how if a student augers one in on a solo it means they'll lose every thing they've worked so hard for. Maintaining my high pass rate is important to me but you've also got to understand that every time I sign a students logbook I'm putting my butt on the line. I'm sorry, but my students have to earn my trust and if that means a dozen more touch and goes then so be it. I'm not milking them, I protecting BOTH of us.
 
Been on both sides of this. Had CFIs who offered to buy lunch when I was a student, had students buy my lunch or offer to when I became a CFI. I never expected to be paid for as they never expected to be paid for either. I also make a note of when we take the break and when we resume so the student is not charged for my time then.
A funny twist to this: a group of CFIs at my school went to lunch together at a local fast food place. One of the part-timers who had a good paying job outside the airport bought lunch for all four of us, saying "she needed the good karma". Of course there came a time a few weeks later when someone else was going for lunch and she couldn't leave because she was teaching ground school so we picked her up something.
 
All i am saying to these guys is have a conscious. I am very close to my CPL and when i do go for my CFIs i'll never charge ridiculous fees as some instructors do. If me and my student are together for 4 hours and i only do one hour of ground, then i'll charge them for 1 hour and not 4 because it's "my time". Infact i won't even charge anything for close friends or family, or people in general who i'd like to help.

I don't want to come off as being mean but I just had to respond to a few of your comments.

First off, I felt the same way when I was working on my CFI but then I realized that I am providing a professional service and people expect to pay for a professional service. If you don't feel as if the training you are providing is not even worth charging for then perhaps being a CFI is not the game for you. Trust me, people will wonder why you are so much cheaper than the other guy. Before you hit the books working on your CFI I suggest you read the book The Savvy Flight Instructor. I can't remember who wrote it but it taught me more than any CFI could about the right way to do things. I'm not sure about what rediculous fees you are talking about. There is flight time and ground time. If you are with a student for 4 hours I can almost guarantee that you will charge them for more than just 1 hour of ground. Don't forget that there is the pre- and post flight briefings, securing the airplane and all that kind of stuff that takes a lot of time. Sooner or later a student will come along that is as slow as mollasses at getting stuff done and that is fine but why should you pay for it with time away from your family and friends? As far as the lunch thing goes if I am your CFI and it was obvious to me that you absolutely refused to buy my lunch when I flew with you then guess what? I may not wanna answer your phone call when you are looking for someone to walk in your resume to your first "Shiney Jet Job." I'm sure you have heard this before but I will reiterate it to you, AVIATION IS A SMALL WORLD.
 
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