CFI/Student Meal Etiquette

[bdhill1979]

I don't want to come off as being mean but I just had to respond to a few of your comments.

First off, I felt the same way when I was working on my CFI but then I realized that I am providing a professional service and people expect to pay for a professional service. If you don't feel as if the training you are providing is not even worth charging for then perhaps being a CFI is not the game for you. Trust me, people will wonder why you are so much cheaper than the other guy. Before you hit the books working on your CFI I suggest you read the book The Savvy Flight Instructor. I can't remember who wrote it but it taught me more than any CFI could about the right way to do things. I'm not sure about what rediculous fees you are talking about. There is flight time and ground time. If you are with a student for 4 hours I can almost guarantee that you will charge them for more than just 1 hour of ground. Don't forget that there is the pre- and post flight briefings, securing the airplane and all that kind of stuff that takes a lot of time. Sooner or later a student will come along that is as slow as mollasses at getting stuff done and that is fine but why should you pay for it with time away from your family and friends? As far as the lunch thing goes if I am your CFI and it was obvious to me that you absolutely refused to buy my lunch when I flew with you then guess what? I may not wanna answer your phone call when you are looking for someone to walk in your resume to your first "Shiney Jet Job." I'm sure you have heard this before but I will reiterate it to you, AVIATION IS A SMALL WORLD.

:yeahthat:An excellent book.

Honestly as a flight instructor if you just give your time away you won't be able to pay your bills.

Also if you treat the time blocked for a student seriously, and bill for it, the student will either get the hint to be serious himself, or run out of money wasting his own time.

I have students that take it seriously and they save boatloads of cash because the time they are paying for is very productive. I have other students that do not take it very seriously and accomplish almost nothing every time they show up because I am spending at least half the time going over what they should have read the night before.

Either way, I am getting paid.

 

[N8081G]

We all have different opinions on this issue so therefore we should respect everyone's point of view. There is no right or wrong answer to this, it all depends on the student and CFI. Personally i won't pay for an instructor's meal and i have never been asked to. As someone mentioned, don't try to squeeze every dime and nickel out of your student's pocket because he/she may reward you a lot more in the end. I understand with the current economy some of you have no choice, most of you are young (as i am), have bills to pay, loans to repay and all that good stuff but there comes a time when good morals comes into play.

To me, it is not a very professional thing to sit there, eat the food then expect the student to pay for both meals unless he/she offers upfront. A professional won't do that. Also it doesn't necessarily means that just because you give free or cheap instruction that it's of poor quality.

I'll leave you guys with that.

 

[esa17]

To me, it is not a very professional thing to sit there, eat the food then expect the student to pay for both meals unless he/she offers upfront. A professional won't do that. Also it doesn't necessarily means that just because you give free or cheap instruction that it's of poor quality.

I'll leave you guys with that.

One last thing to consider is just what goes on during the course of training, its something you've probably never considered. Your opinion of instructors seems to be very cold and mechanical, as if we are robots who only serve to provide instruction for you. Once you start instructing and spending more time with your students than you do with your own friends and family I think your attitudes will change. We generally go out of our way to be both personable and professional. That means that sometimes you become friends with your students and you know what, every now and again it makes us feel a little better as people when someone does something nice. Small little favors often pay off in the long run. Instructors are mentors, friends, and human beings. Please don't assume you are doing us a favor by being there, I can promise you we're busting our cans.

 

[N8081G]

One last thing to consider is just what goes on during the course of training, its something you've probably never considered. Your opinion of instructors seems to be very cold and mechanical, as if we are robots who only serve to provide instruction for you. Once you start instructing and spending more time with your students than you do with your own friends and family I think your attitudes will change. We generally go out of our way to be both personable and professional. That means that sometimes you become friends with your students and you know what, every now and again it makes us feel a little better as people when someone does something nice. Small little favors often pay off in the long run. Instructors are mentors, friends, and human beings. Please don't assume you are doing us a favor by being there, I can promise you we're busting our cans.

For what it's worth, we all know that a lot of Flight Schools and Instructors are sometimes worse than used car salesmen. I've heard soooooo many stories of people getting ripped off from their training. For example, the owner of a flight school taking everyone's money and suddenly disappeared with it, an instructor telling a student pilot that he can get her the private pilot certificate on a SIMULATOR and instructors teaching the same manuveurs over and over again even though the student does it within PTS standards. The list can go on and on and it'll take me all night. I do have lots of respect for flight instructors because of all the studying and dedication they put into ther career but it doesn't take very long for me to lose that respect if i find they are taking me for a ride. Fortunately i've come this far in my training and never got ripped off from a flight school or instructor but i have friends who did.

The relationship between me and my instructor is excellent even though i don't buy him meals or try to kiss his ass. We have a professional relationship and we keep it that way. I am also 100% sure that he would give me a letter of recommendation anyday even though i never bought him meals. To those who established friendship through their students then thats awesome but i rather keep a professional relationship with my instructor and flight school than to "be friends". I have tons of friends at school, in my neighbourhood and so on.

Also one last thing to consider too, guys. I am sure many of you know what you've been getting yourself into when you became a flight instructor. Low pay, hard work and yadda yadda yadda.., please, when flying don't take it out on your students about how your wages are so low. No one never forced you to do what you're doing and if it's really that bad and you never stop complaining then do something else.

 

[sdfcvoh]

Its dutch until I become a CFI, then Student pays after I become a CFI

 

[tpaRob]

I am still a student and I have bought lunch/dinner for my instructors. I have even bought a few breakfasts during for my instructor while doing some ground before my written. It wasn't expected, but I did it out of respect. My instructors have always bent over backwards to schedule me in when I wanted to meet or fly. I have even bought dinner (50 wings and fries) for the front desk and line guys during the Sun 'n Fun. They were slammed and I knew they appreciated it. It's all about showing some love. If you're lucky it will come back to you when you need something. It has always come back to me when I least expect it.

Networking is key in any business. When I first started my website developement business I didn't have any clients. I had no network. But, after a year or so of practically giving away websites, I have a full network. I find myself actaully turning some business down now. I did all the charity sites I could get my hands on, for free. Did I do it for selfish reasons? Well, let's just say everyone came out a winner.

Some people have a lot to learn about the world. It's mostly about the small things you do.

Happy Landings! I am grounded for a while because someone cracked up my plane (no injuries).

Rob

 

[bdhill1979]

Also it doesn't necessarily means that just because you give free or cheap instruction that it's of poor quality.

Couldn't disagree more, free instruction is worth what you paid for it.

Instructors teaching the same maneuvers over and over again even though the student does it within PTS standards.

The PTS is a D- grade, a pass and nothing more. Just performing a maneuver within PTS is not good enough to get a sign off from me. It has to be consistent and perfect.

But what do I know, I have never had a private pilot applicant fail a checkride; and not one of the students that I started went to checkride past 50 total hours.

 

[mdolezal]

Wow, this has turned into a very informative thread, so thanks for all of the opinions. I tell you what, there are certainly a lot more opinions coming through on this than I anticipated. I tell you why I asked... I'm a career student right now at an FBO. I work part time and flight train, more or less, full time. I'm basically living on savings and a loan until I get all of my ratings in a few months. Oddly enough, my instructor, I'm sure, in a previous job made much more in a year than I have in my life. This being said, it does not diminish his time now and its value. The reason I inquired is because I didn't want to look like an arrogant punk if I offered to pay (I didn't want it to look like, "Hey, I know you're older than me, but I know you don't get paid diddly, so let me help you out here.") Also, it was a mutual decision to get lunch, not really mine (as a student) and not really my instructor's either... just sorta came up in conversation. Regardless, my instructor is fantastic and has always been extremely fair on ground time billing, and is very willing to help with any out of the blue questions, which he admits helps educate him. So, we did do lunch. I won't say who paid for what, but what I will say is this: we shot the poo about stuff besides flight training, talked a bit about the flight and flight training, and had a great lunch, and I think we both found the situation to be very fair. I have no complaints, anyway. Regardless, thanks for all of the opinions on this topic!

 

[bdhill1979]

Wow, this has turned into a very informative thread, so thanks for all of the opinions. I tell you what, there are certainly a lot more opinions coming through on this than I anticipated. I tell you why I asked... I'm a career student right now at an FBO. I work part time and flight train, more or less, full time. I'm basically living on savings and a loan until I get all of my ratings in a few months. Oddly enough, my instructor, I'm sure, in a previous job made much more in a year than I have in my life. This being said, it does not diminish his time now and its value. The reason I inquired is because I didn't want to look like an arrogant punk if I offered to pay (I didn't want it to look like, "Hey, I know you're older than me, but I know you don't get paid diddly, so let me help you out here.") Also, it was a mutual decision to get lunch, not really mine (as a student) and not really my instructor's either... just sorta came up in conversation. Regardless, my instructor is fantastic and has always been extremely fair on ground time billing, and is very willing to help with any out of the blue questions, which he admits helps educate him. So, we did do lunch. I won't say who paid for what, but what I will say is this: we shot the poo about stuff besides flight training, talked a bit about the flight and flight training, and had a great lunch, and I think we both found the situation to be very fair. I have no complaints, anyway. Regardless, thanks for all of the opinions on this topic!

You know I have had a lot of lunch "ground" sessions like what you described that were actually more productive than some of the scheduled ground sessions. The student is more relaxed and we are talking about a lot of other things. That is why I don't mind making a lunch a quasi ground session, because it isn't and should not be a full on ground session. Ask a question or two......chit chat about this or that......a few stories.....and most importantly food and a break from actually working.

 

[Baronpilot244]

YEp! I always used to insist on paying when we had lunch - my poor CFI (not monetarily) had to put up with breating me for altitude, heading, bad landings, and all that other stuff. (hell I didn't know straight and level were supposed to coincide - I just tried to work on one at a time!)
So I figured I owed him!

BP244

 

[The Gardener]

The simple solution to all of this is if the student and instructor don't want to deal with paying for lunch that don't stop for lunch! that isn't too hard of a concept really.

BTW, my student Eric A. always offers to buy my lunch, he is a great guy. He even tells me he will take me to a crab dinner after he passes his checkride. Really, what a guy.