Left/Right Traffic on approach

Flyin_bryan

Flyin_bryan

New Member
Ive had this in my mind for a while, Im not sure if I broke a rule, but I think the circumstances dictated it.

SETUP: On a VOR instrument approach that is not aligned with the runway in actual at Fullerton airport in california. Im instrument rated and sitting in the right seat, a guy who is not an instrument student nor instrument rated in the left seat. We are flying a low wing airplane that has a big nose on it, hence there is really restricted visibility to the ground from the airplane, especially at low airspeeds when the nose is up. Weather just above minimums. Landing runway 24.

here is the approach in pdf.

WHAT HAPPENED: Were coming up to Fullerton airport and I realize I cant see #### out the front or left of the airplane because of the restricted visibility outside from the wings/nose of the aircraft and the guy sitting in the left seat blocking my view. The airport is so small you really have to fly to the right or left of the airport to see it from this particular airplane (you cant see right below the aircraft). The non intrument pilot in the left seat should be the first one to spot the airport becase of how this approach is angled. However, he donest know what the heck is going on and doesnt call out the airport. We broke out of the clouds just above minimums, 1 mile before the MAP.

About 2 miles from the airport I switch over to tower, tower comes back cleared to land and says make left traffic.

Mind you, I wasnt told to expect left traffic, and it does not say left traffic anywhere on the approach.

By the time I visually identify the airport, we are over it, and then slightly past it. I tell the tower Im making right traffic, contrary to what he had said, and I dont have time to ask or explain.

The reasons I tell him this is becuase if I turn to go make left traffic now I will lose sight of the airport under the airplane, and I cannot see out the left side of the airplane very well with the other guy sitting there. If I make right traffic from the current position, I can clearly see the airport throughout my downwind leg, base leg, and final. I elected it was safer to make right traffic.

We landed no problems.

One factor why they make left traffic might be a couple low towers on the right traffic. I was aware of this on the approach and made a tight right hand traffic pattern.

We used the radar minimums.

The approach does not dictate left/right traffic.

Was this the correct thing to do / legal thing to do?
 
Left/right traffic on inst approach

Ive had this in my mind for a while, Im not sure if I broke a rule, but I think the circumstances dictated it.

SETUP: On a VOR instrument approach that is not aligned with the runway in actual at Fullerton airport in california. Im instrument rated and sitting in the right seat, a guy who is not an instrument student nor instrument rated in the left seat. We are flying a low wing airplane that has a big nose on it, hence there is really restricted visibility to the ground from the airplane, especially at low airspeeds when the nose is up. Weather just above minimums. Landing runway 24.

here is the approach in pdf.

WHAT HAPPENED: Were coming up to Fullerton airport and I realize I cant see crap out the front or left of the airplane because of the restricted visibility outside from the wings/nose of the aircraft and the guy sitting in the left seat blocking my view. The airport is so small you really have to fly to the right or left of the airport to see it from this particular airplane (you cant see right below the aircraft). The non intrument pilot in the left seat should be the first one to spot the airport becase of how this approach is angled. However, he donest know what the heck is going on and doesnt call out the airport. We broke out of the clouds just above minimums, 1 mile before the MAP.

About 2 miles from the airport I switch over to tower, tower comes back cleared to land and says make left traffic.

Mind you, I wasnt told to expect left traffic, and it does not say left traffic anywhere on the approach.

By the time I visually identify the airport, we are over it, and then slightly past it. I tell the tower Im making right traffic, contrary to what he had said, and I dont have time to ask or explain.

The reasons I tell him this is becuase if I turn to go make left traffic now I will lose sight of the airport under the airplane, and I cannot see out the left side of the airplane very well with the other guy sitting there. If I make right traffic from the current position, I can clearly see the airport throughout my downwind leg, base leg, and final. I elected it was safer to make right traffic.

We landed no problems.

One factor why they make left traffic might be a couple low towers on the right traffic. I was aware of this on the approach and made a tight right hand traffic pattern.

We used the radar minimums.

The approach does not dictate left/right traffic.

Was this the correct thing to do / legal thing to do?
 
If you informed the tower that you needed right traffic, they should have come back and told you "Cessna 1234, right traffic approved, clear to land runway XX".

As for you making right traffic, I don't see a problem with it as long as the tower acknowledged and approved you request. Otherwise, I would've complied with turning back to the downwind and making left traffic. As long as you stay within the distance specified for your category of airplane (probably category B with a 1.5 mi distance), I don't think you violated any regulations.

AIM 5-4-19(f) has some decent words on the subject including making standard left turns.
 
Re: Left/right traffic on inst approach

You probably should have complied with tower on this. If the weather is too low and you have to go missed, then you have to go missed. I would have requested right traffic before just going ahead and doing it. Tower may be aware of something you may not be. Was there any traffic to consider that you could have potentially caused a conflict with?

You probably should have gone missed, and shot it again. In this case ATC wasn't asking you to do something unsafe or violate an FAR, so you should comply. Causing you to lose sight of the airport and causing you to go missed it is not a good enough reason to play the safety card unless you had some other issue that would need you had to land immediately.
 
Re: Left/right traffic on inst approach

Number1atNumber2 said:
You probably should have complied with tower on this. If the weather is too low and you have to go missed, then you have to go missed. I would have requested right traffic before just going ahead and doing it. Tower may be aware of something you may not be. Was there any traffic to consider that you could have potentially caused a conflict with?

You probably should have gone missed, and shot it again. In this case ATC wasn't asking you to do something unsafe or violate an FAR, so you should comply. Causing you to lose sight of the airport and causing you to go missed it is not a good enough reason to play the safety card unless you had some other issue that would need you had to land immediately.
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ADDITIONAL INFO: No other traffic, airport is IFR, broken 800 ft agl. The controller told me to make left traffic when I was crossing the airport making right traffic. The sectional chart at fullerton says RP 24.

Is it unsafe to maneuver the airplane on a circling approach at 644 ft AGL to get it aligned for left traffic when im already on right traffic? Having to make left traffic was somthing I was not expecting and told at the last minute to do. My answer, was it unsafe to make left traffic on a circling approach from where I was: yes. Was what I was doing unsafe to cause a missed approach? My answer: no, I wasn't made aware of any circumstance that would cause me to abandon my approach.

I know circling approaches are wishy washy, thanks for the comments guys.
 
Re: Left/right traffic on inst approach

Flyin_bryan said:
SETUP: On a VOR instrument approach. Im instrument rated and sitting in the right seat, a guy who is not an instrument student nor instrument rated in the left seat. We are flying a low wing airplane that has a big nose on it, hence there is really restricted visibility to the ground from the airplane, especially at low airspeeds when the nose is up. Weather just above minimums. Landing runway 24.
WHAT HAPPENED: Were coming up to Fullerton airport and I realize I cant see crap out the front or left of the airplane because of the restricted visibility outside from the wings/nose of the aircraft and the guy sitting in the left seat blocking my view. The airport is so small you really have to fly to the right or left of the airport to see it from this particular airplane (you cant see right below the aircraft). The non intrument pilot in the left seat should be the first one to spot the airport becase of how this approach is angled. However, he donest know what the heck is going on and doesnt call out the airport. We broke out of the clouds just above minimums, 1 mile before the MAP.
Click to expand...
just curious, why werent you in the left seat? doesnt the PIC have to be in the left seat? (unless there is training going on) please correct me if im wrong
 
Re: Left/right traffic on inst approach

thesoonerkid said:
just curious, why werent you in the left seat? doesnt the PIC have to be in the left seat? (unless there is training going on) please correct me if im wrong
Click to expand...

No. You do not have to sit in the left seat. I fly from the right seat about 90% of the time, even when I am flying by myself.
 
The problem isn't that you made right traffic as on an approach your not in the traffic pattern but circling to land instead. The problem that could arise from this situation is doing to opposite of what the controller said to do. Only time you can go and do that is if you need to do something for the safety of the flight.

Circling is different from a traffic pattern as there are different rules for both.
 
Did tower say anything to you about it after you landed or give you a phone number? If not, then it's probably not going to turn into anything, but I'd probably send in the NASA ASRS form just in case. There's no "circling not authorized NW of the airport" note or anything on the chart; the correct thing is to coordinate your circling maneuver with tower. I'd probably put yourself in the left seat next time you do that approach or one just like it, because clearly that person should see the airport first. Or, you might have, knowing you'd be able to keep the field in sight easier, coordinated on first contact with tower that you were going to need the right base. Finally, if you weren't in a safe position to perform the maneuver you were assigned to perform, either coordinate for something else or go missed.
 
The whole thing was a non issue, the tower cleared me to land via right traffic after my request/statement. If i remember correctly I think it was a bit of both. :D I really dont think the tower had me in sight when he issued the left traffic and figured whoever was flying was sitting in the left seat, would see the airport, and would want a left pattern.

The AFD and sectionals say to use right traffic for runway 24. This happened over a year ago but its stuck in my mind as an interesting 15 second senario that I thought I'd share and get some comments on.

What are the rules for a circling approach as opposed to traffic pattern?

I am unclear when Im still technically on the approach circling and when it turns into the traffic pattern....? once I have contact with the airport? but what if you have visual contact with the airport and know that you cant maintain the contact? Doesnt the approach terminate when the aircraft lands? ...or intentially goes below MDA?

I dont understand why the controller wanted to give left traffic when the approach doesnt dictate it, and the AFD and secional say right traffic.
 
You were circling, so follow the circling procedures all the way to touchdown. In other words, stay within the circling distance (1.3 for A, 1.5 for B, 1.7 for C, 2.3 for D, 4.5 for E) and maintain the applicable MDA until in a position to make a normal landing. The "right traffic" note in the AFD/sectional doesn't apply to circling (it applies to VFR traffic patterns--which it doesn't even sound like you would have had the weather to do one of those anyway), but always read the notes on the approach plate because there may be a certain area around the airport where circling is not authorized (noise-sensitive areas, obstacles, etc). In your situation, it sounds like the tower approved your plan of action so there's no issue.
 
If the field was actually IFR, then there would be no other vfr (or ifr) traffic to consider. You may turn in either direction to circle unless the approach chart has limitations.

The tower probably gave you left traffic because that probably looked convient from his viewpoint, and if you were in the left seat, you probably could have complied, but that doesn't matter. When you break out, somtimes you are right over the top of the airport and you have to turn in a direction that ensures visual contact with the airport environment. If time permits, you should inform the tower you are circling in different direction, but if time does not permit, do what you have to and tell him later.

You have not violated a reg or an ATC instruction, don't worry about it, but be informed that an instrument approach to an IFR airport gives you all the airspace of the approach including the circling area, and the missed approach airspace with no further clearance requesting.

That's if the tower-controlled airport is IFR. If it is VFR, you must comply with VFR Traffic patterns and such, and since most of our IFR training is in these vfr conditions, we sometimes think we have to 'comply' with every tower instruction.

That could prove to be deadly in low scuddy conditions on break-out.
 
My two cents here, I think the problem here is that you disregarded ATC instruction in control airspace, sure nothing arose from it and I understand your point about right being easier. Playing back seat driver I would have requested right traffic and waited for the acknowledgment, if I lost sight of the field then the missed would have been my next step. There was no emergency and or safety of flight to deviate from ATC instruction and really would it have hurt you to wait that two seconds for his answer or having gone missed?
Of course in the end you are responsible for the safety of the flight and being that you are here to tell the story then you picked the appropriate course of action you felt was in your best interest and the fact that you are asking about it only means you are learning about it to improve. Good job keep it up.
Eventually you'll get to the point you can do, opposite to your seat, traffic pattern without ever looking at the runway. Heck I do it from the right seat of a Saab and the view is not great sometimes.
Oh yeah one last point, you could have used your friend, pilot or not to help you keep the situational awareness.
 
I think I can see why this question has strayed in your head for so long but step back and look at the situation for what is/was. You shot an approach. You circled to the other side of what the guy said. He didn't disagree when you told him you'd prefer to circle to the right. You landed. End of story.
You did the right thing by yourself. I think some people out there think ATC is God and would let them fly them right into a mountain.
 
Hello,
I saw this thread and had a similar question and wanted to chime in. I'm doing my CFII training rides, and was shooting a circle to land approach. I was offset to the right side of the runway when I "broke out" per my instructor, and I entered left traffic for the active runway. Bam, it was a hit and my instructror stated that the FSDO examiner would have downed me on my checkride for not following the perscribed traffic pattern at that airport (right traffic). Mind you the approach HERE does not state circling n/a to either side. My thought is this, how if you were shooting an actual approach to an uncontrolled field does the preferred VFR tfc pattern apply? According to AIM 5-4-20 F 1. Manuever to the shortes path to the base or downwind leg, as appropriate.....
 
mjg407 said:
Hello,
I saw this thread and had a similar question and wanted to chime in. I'm doing my CFII training rides, and was shooting a circle to land approach. I was offset to the right side of the runway when I "broke out" per my instructor, and I entered left traffic for the active runway. Bam, it was a hit and my instructror stated that the FSDO examiner would have downed me on my checkride for not following the perscribed traffic pattern at that airport (right traffic). Mind you the approach HERE does not state circling n/a to either side. My thought is this, how if you were shooting an actual approach to an uncontrolled field does the preferred VFR tfc pattern apply? According to AIM 5-4-20 F 1. Manuever to the shortes path to the base or downwind leg, as appropriate.....
Click to expand...
The direction of turn rule says:

==============================
Each pilot of an airplane must make all turns of that airplane to the left unless the airport displays approved light signals or visual markings indicating that turns should be made to the right, in which case the pilot must make all turns to the right;
==============================

Note that it does not say, "except when under IFR." Maybe that's what the Alaska Airlines pilot was thinking when he got nailed for violating the traffic pattern rule: http://www.ntsb.gov/alj/o_n_o/docs/AVIATION/3671.PDF

The circling in a certain area NA on an approach chart has to do with TERPS stuff like terrain and obstacles, not the traffic pattern that the airport owner has chosen for reasons that may have nothing to do with either terrain or obstacles.

Consider that, in the typical IFR flight, even one with part of the approach in actual, there may well be VFR traffic.

The AIM guidance says to maneuver in the shortest distance to the downwind or base leg. The legal downwind or base is the one in the authorized pattern, not one you make up for yourself.
 
I get what you are saying, but if you are strictly flying IFR, with IFR charts and NOS approach charts, how would you know what the appropriate pattern is for an airport without a control tower? I would assume the caveat is that you should be consulting the AFD in preflight to insure you are aware of the airport traffic pattern.
 
mjg407 said:
I get what you are saying, but if you are strictly flying IFR, with IFR charts and NOS approach charts, how would you know what the appropriate pattern is for an airport without a control tower? I would assume the caveat is that you should be consulting the AFD in preflight to insure you are aware of the airport traffic pattern.
Click to expand...
You've got the caveat right. You obligation to have all available information does not end with getting an instrument rating. Whoever said that flying strictly IFR means having =only= IFR enroute and terminal procedure charts with you?
 
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