Ari Ben Aviator
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Florida_Flyer
Well-Known Member
Better to ask the question before setting an attendance date. But it's not to late to change.....which is a good thing because you'll want to. The bare bones of the course are good. But it's all spoilt by incompetent, bullying management who make the whole thing into a painful drawn out process. It will all cost much more than you think and take far longer. This is made even worse by the fact we are heading into a downward turn in the fortunes of the aviation industry. Specific problems? Where do I start? Aformentioned management, instructor shortages, far too many students (mainly Indian), elderly and badly maintained planes, bad accident, incident record (including fatalities), bad CFI pass rates, horrible location, variable housing, potential for hurricanes, variable training standards, poor facilities, now quite expensive for what it is.......the list just goes on.
You could take the tour of the place but Mike Cohen will only tell you and let you see whatever it takes to get you there.
For more detail on my experiences of this school see my earlier posts. Yes, I'm Alumni and was did better than most in getting through the whole, painful process. Sure, guys will come on here telling you how good this place is but most will not have attended like I did. Bottom line? Ari Ben Aviator is more trouble than int's worth.
You could take the tour of the place but Mike Cohen will only tell you and let you see whatever it takes to get you there.
For more detail on my experiences of this school see my earlier posts. Yes, I'm Alumni and was did better than most in getting through the whole, painful process. Sure, guys will come on here telling you how good this place is but most will not have attended like I did. Bottom line? Ari Ben Aviator is more trouble than int's worth.
BillErvin
Peddling as fast as I can
First of all Florida flyer is not a good representation of a current student, he went through the program some time ago. He spends his time here bashing the management.
I visited the school in May and was allowed full access, maintenance, flight line, took a ride with an instructor and his student, talked with many students and instructors. No one was standing around looking over my shoulder giving them the evil eye.
As far as accidents and incidents, you can look those up (use "ari ben aviator" as a search key) on NTSB.gov, from 95 to present there are 5 of them with two separate fatalities, check them out and draw your own conclusions, you'll generally find these at any major flight school. I found the school to be okay, and will be going there myself, probably in August as well.
Flight schools the size of Ari ben are going to have issues! Airplanes break at inopportune times, instructors move on, fuel price go up, whatever!!! You can roll with the flow, be flexible so to speak, and make the best of it, or you can be bitter, gripe and complain and be miserable like FF seems to have been.:banghead:
Any flight program is what you make of it, If you want to go to Ari Ben I would suggest going there to check it out yourself. There are a few JCer's attending right now, and you might get messages or PMs from them.
Bill
I visited the school in May and was allowed full access, maintenance, flight line, took a ride with an instructor and his student, talked with many students and instructors. No one was standing around looking over my shoulder giving them the evil eye.
As far as accidents and incidents, you can look those up (use "ari ben aviator" as a search key) on NTSB.gov, from 95 to present there are 5 of them with two separate fatalities, check them out and draw your own conclusions, you'll generally find these at any major flight school. I found the school to be okay, and will be going there myself, probably in August as well.
Flight schools the size of Ari ben are going to have issues! Airplanes break at inopportune times, instructors move on, fuel price go up, whatever!!! You can roll with the flow, be flexible so to speak, and make the best of it, or you can be bitter, gripe and complain and be miserable like FF seems to have been.:banghead:
Any flight program is what you make of it, If you want to go to Ari Ben I would suggest going there to check it out yourself. There are a few JCer's attending right now, and you might get messages or PMs from them.
Bill
brentg350
New Member
I waited awhile before deciding to post because I was in the process of moving my family from California to Port St. Lucie, Fl. which is a cool little town but anyway.
Florida flyer gets hammered but in fact what he says is true, I kind of equate him to the corner prophet who wears a rob looking like Jesus shouting at passing cars, you ignore him but in fact you know deep inside that maybe you should take to time to listen to a little of what he's saying.
I attended Ari for about two months and flew about 12 hours, which was supposed to be a 65 hour 30 day program. Now don't get me wrong, I knew for a fact that I wasn't going to be done in thirty days but I expected to be at least half way through.
I can only speak on my experiences so let me get started. People talk about the ol' bait and switch that is exactly what that place is, everything is a big surprise from what you think the price of the course is to the price of housing. I spoke with Mike twice, once when I visited in October and the second time when I requested to speak with him about the change in price of the course. That first time, kind of brash but he assured me he was interested in turning out aviators not making a killing. The second time whole different story - he acted like if he honored his word and gave me the original price he quoted I would be solely responsible for putting him out of business - I should have left right then, but I decided to stick it out.
You think that as an aviator you should be responsible and concerned enough to teach yourself what you think you should know, but that’s wrong you should be concerned enough to further your education after a solid aviation foundation has been built by proper instruction. That's the problem with Aviator there is no instruction, you’re renting a plane with a chaperon. Just about every instructor has been taught the same way and believe me he returns the favor. He gets paid for flights and that’s all he or she has time for.
VA students have absolutely no business attending that school, the price is higher for VA students- why because the government is paying for it not you. That just pisses me off; for one you pay initially and then you get reimbursed, and second who's to say that I want to spend all of my education money that I sweat blood and tears for at your establishment, and third there is absolutely no difference between the way that 141 students are being taught versus part 61 (a big no-no).
I'm not going to continue on about the place because I guess it is a reasonable price for a twin rental because that's about all you’re getting.
I have registered at flight safety for the same helicopter to fix wing transition course that I was attempting to do at Ari ben for a few thousand more. It just goes back to the statement “you get what you pay for”. This is just a quarter of what I experienced if anybody has any questions or comments post’em or pm me.
To the person who owns this thread hope this helps a little, it is vague but I'm tired I just drove all the way from california with two kids and two cars.
Florida flyer gets hammered but in fact what he says is true, I kind of equate him to the corner prophet who wears a rob looking like Jesus shouting at passing cars, you ignore him but in fact you know deep inside that maybe you should take to time to listen to a little of what he's saying.
I attended Ari for about two months and flew about 12 hours, which was supposed to be a 65 hour 30 day program. Now don't get me wrong, I knew for a fact that I wasn't going to be done in thirty days but I expected to be at least half way through.
I can only speak on my experiences so let me get started. People talk about the ol' bait and switch that is exactly what that place is, everything is a big surprise from what you think the price of the course is to the price of housing. I spoke with Mike twice, once when I visited in October and the second time when I requested to speak with him about the change in price of the course. That first time, kind of brash but he assured me he was interested in turning out aviators not making a killing. The second time whole different story - he acted like if he honored his word and gave me the original price he quoted I would be solely responsible for putting him out of business - I should have left right then, but I decided to stick it out.
You think that as an aviator you should be responsible and concerned enough to teach yourself what you think you should know, but that’s wrong you should be concerned enough to further your education after a solid aviation foundation has been built by proper instruction. That's the problem with Aviator there is no instruction, you’re renting a plane with a chaperon. Just about every instructor has been taught the same way and believe me he returns the favor. He gets paid for flights and that’s all he or she has time for.
VA students have absolutely no business attending that school, the price is higher for VA students- why because the government is paying for it not you. That just pisses me off; for one you pay initially and then you get reimbursed, and second who's to say that I want to spend all of my education money that I sweat blood and tears for at your establishment, and third there is absolutely no difference between the way that 141 students are being taught versus part 61 (a big no-no).
I'm not going to continue on about the place because I guess it is a reasonable price for a twin rental because that's about all you’re getting.
I have registered at flight safety for the same helicopter to fix wing transition course that I was attempting to do at Ari ben for a few thousand more. It just goes back to the statement “you get what you pay for”. This is just a quarter of what I experienced if anybody has any questions or comments post’em or pm me.
To the person who owns this thread hope this helps a little, it is vague but I'm tired I just drove all the way from california with two kids and two cars.
Brentg,
Excellent perspective. I did have the same thought process about the level of instruction as it relates to all those big name academies that transition new minted commericial pilot into instructors. I wasn't certain if academies presented the personal, individualistic method of instruction would receive if you went to a FBO or smaller flight school where you can screen a potential instructor or flight school. I believe I did hear earlier in the year Ari-Ben was going to have problems with having sufficient instructors on board for students. Didn't realize it was that bad.
It does beg another question why VA prices are higher than for others? Is this really true? Is so, can someone please explain why?
Additionally, there has to be a difference between Part 141 and 61. What areas did you see where there wasn't a difference? (You can PM me about that if you wish)
I also understand Ari was posting here on an irregular basis. Any comments from him?
Excellent perspective. I did have the same thought process about the level of instruction as it relates to all those big name academies that transition new minted commericial pilot into instructors. I wasn't certain if academies presented the personal, individualistic method of instruction would receive if you went to a FBO or smaller flight school where you can screen a potential instructor or flight school. I believe I did hear earlier in the year Ari-Ben was going to have problems with having sufficient instructors on board for students. Didn't realize it was that bad.
It does beg another question why VA prices are higher than for others? Is this really true? Is so, can someone please explain why?
Additionally, there has to be a difference between Part 141 and 61. What areas did you see where there wasn't a difference? (You can PM me about that if you wish)
I also understand Ari was posting here on an irregular basis. Any comments from him?
CommPilot76
New Member
As the story goes, Brent first contacted the Aviator in July 2007 stating that he wanted to start his flight training in February 2008. Within those 7 months the price of fuel increased significantly and all flight schools had to raise the price of flight training. All of our Advertisements and our website states that the price is subject to change. There is also a note on our Website that states that flight fees are estimates and for planning purposes only and that adjustments may need to be made.
When he arrived at the school both Brent and his instructor felt that he needed extra ground time as he was not up to standards.
As we all are aware fuel prices have increased within the past year. Aviator still offers the best VA flight training programs at the best price….
http://www.flyaviator.com/vaPro.html
If you have any questions on our programs please feel free to contact:
Angela at 1-800-635-9032
When he arrived at the school both Brent and his instructor felt that he needed extra ground time as he was not up to standards.
As we all are aware fuel prices have increased within the past year. Aviator still offers the best VA flight training programs at the best price….
http://www.flyaviator.com/vaPro.html
If you have any questions on our programs please feel free to contact:
Angela at 1-800-635-9032
BillErvin
Peddling as fast as I can
And you are....???
12 flight hours in two months? Book work is one thing, but part 141 programs (and VA programs are like a 141 program) are generally a curriculum based course. If one follows the curriculum it should not take that long to get only 12 hours, am I wrong?
Thats only 1.5 flight hours a week, is that what the curriculum calls for? At that rate it would take someone two and a half years to go through the Pro pilot program.
I can understand price changes for fuel costs. My 150 only burns 5 to 6 gph and it kills me when I fill it up, and I live on an airpark with co-op fuel.
Changes up to the point of a signed contract price are fine. After that it depends on what the contract says.
Heck I'm one of your biggest defenders on JC, I visited and liked what I saw and heard from students and instructors. I'm still planning on coming in August at this point, but, I still can't get over only 12 hours in two months:banghead:
Bill
Gonzo
Well-Known Member
His name is Josh and he is Mike's house boy.
Concur Bill,
Very few hours flown, which I believe I heard what was going to occur due to what I thought was going to be instructor shortages. I'd like to now hear on the forum the two issues addressed as it relates to higher cost to VA students. CommPilot76 mentioned higher costs due to fuel prices, which I do understand, but I'm confused if in fact VA prices are higher than other students. I'd appreciate an explanation if that's true given the fact everyone there should be Part 141.
Additionally, Brent talked about the "cookie cutter" approach to flight training by CFIs. If it works, that's fine. His perception, however, is that you're simply flying with a chaperone and not being effectively taught. Is this perception isolated or is it systemic? Anyone care to elaborate here? Yes, we know quality of instructors are different as quality of airplanes flown. Does one actually have a choice of with whom to fly? Can we interview Ari instructors the same way one does with instructors from FBOs, or do we take what we can get based upon who is available?
Very few hours flown, which I believe I heard what was going to occur due to what I thought was going to be instructor shortages. I'd like to now hear on the forum the two issues addressed as it relates to higher cost to VA students. CommPilot76 mentioned higher costs due to fuel prices, which I do understand, but I'm confused if in fact VA prices are higher than other students. I'd appreciate an explanation if that's true given the fact everyone there should be Part 141.
Additionally, Brent talked about the "cookie cutter" approach to flight training by CFIs. If it works, that's fine. His perception, however, is that you're simply flying with a chaperone and not being effectively taught. Is this perception isolated or is it systemic? Anyone care to elaborate here? Yes, we know quality of instructors are different as quality of airplanes flown. Does one actually have a choice of with whom to fly? Can we interview Ari instructors the same way one does with instructors from FBOs, or do we take what we can get based upon who is available?
Hopefully BrentG comes back to the thread, but until then I'll say this:
He was a combat helicopter pilot who served honorably with the 101st Airborne Division in Iraq. He obviously passed Army flight training (i.e. a challenge greater than a florida flight school) and he commanded a multi-engine turbine powered helicopter in combat.
Now draw your own conclusions about how you judge and weight Brent's experience at Ari Ben.
He was a combat helicopter pilot who served honorably with the 101st Airborne Division in Iraq. He obviously passed Army flight training (i.e. a challenge greater than a florida flight school) and he commanded a multi-engine turbine powered helicopter in combat.
Now draw your own conclusions about how you judge and weight Brent's experience at Ari Ben.
OK, but Brent mentioned housing prices went up as well. Care to explain the reason for the increased housing? Does it relate to transportation back and forth to the housing?
. . .and we understand that as well. Kinda rhetorical to even have mentioned this point of fact, but it is a great reminder to all. The numbers are estimates. Plus up accordingly is a good gauge to be safe, right?
OK, here's where I get a little confused. Not to be student specific here, my understanding is that you're going to "ground" a pilot to improve a student's flying prowess? Confusing.
BillErvin
Peddling as fast as I can
I'm aware of his background, that is why I'm a little miffed at the response from "Josh". Army flight school ain't for slouches
I'm aware of his background, that is why I'm a little miffed at the response from "Josh". Army flight school ain't for slouches
More of a reason to explain why "ground school" was required which reduced the air time. That's doesn't make sense to me.
Ground school for what? I flew numerous hours before I truly opened a book. Fishy.
CommPilot76 needs something more substantive than the initial statement he made. . .and speak generically if that's possible. No need for specifics.
BillErvin
Peddling as fast as I can
brentg350
New Member
Alright, for some reason I wasn't able to see any other posts but the last one I entered.
I guess commpilot is Josh I wouldn't know, but I'm pretty sure he just asked a generic question and got a generic response. I had 30 hours in a single when I should up at Ari. As for ground school, there is no ground school that’s my whole point they don't charge you for it and they don't really provide it and definitely not by part 141 standards, hence my comment "reasonable price for a rental". The ground school that I was getting was from the MEI course that I was sitting in on. They have this fancy book for the program that the instructor barely looks at. The instructors that I had, had never taught a VA guy before (I'm pretty sure that only the VA guys are so called 141), so they had no clue on how to teach 141 they just taught everyone the same.
If you don't fly with your instructor you don't see him at all, and when you do see him it’s to jump in knock out about a 1.2 and then - "oh I'll try to get you on the schedule in a couple of days I have some other students to fly". Other than that if you don't see him you're on your own.
My main man Ian brought up the point of military flight school, yes -structured to the point that they set you up for success and it's up to you to apply yourself. You know from day to day what's going on and what you need to be ready for. I wasn't at the very top of my class but I never busted a check ride or got less than 87%.
The fact is I came to the academy for instruction not advice, if that was the case I would have looked for a place to get my ratings by correspondence or online.
Furthermore, they've been using that lame excuse of, "everything is subject to change" that's what I mean by the ol'bait and switch, they don't tell you its changed until you actually show up and put money on your account. That's how they get guys, they dump their entire loan into the school account or get disbursements to the school and then it's hard for them to back out without their loan going into automatic repayment. People think like I did, oh that’s not a bad price and it's a flight academy, man you can't loose. If it sounds too good to be true it probably is.
Now just to clarify about the price, I visited the school in October of last year and when I did they told me that they had just had another price increase due to fuel from the time that I put my deposit down in August. I asked Mike specifically if he could guarantee this new price for me when I show up in December, he said that he could and wrote it down on a business card. December rolls around and I'm packing to move so I call the school two weeks early to make sure everything is set and I get this response from Angela, "Oh I was meaning to call were short instructors and were not taking anymore students until April. OK, little pissed that they didn’t call me but I’ll get over it. So I show up in April start enrolling put money down on my account and something says – hey ask about the price, so I did. I get the, “oh let me check” statement from Angela. They come back with this price that’s 4 grand higher than what I was quoted. So I asked to see Pierre (good guy) he assures me that they’re going to take care of me and to start training and he will talk to Mike about the price. Three days go by still no word from Mike, so I told Pierre I’m not flying another hour until I can talk to somebody about the price. A week went by before I finally tracked down Mike and got the response I wrote about earlier. What really pissed me off with the whole thing is that Mike was charging everyone there 210.00 and in April the so called price went up again and he started charging everyone 255.00. I asked why they were getting charged 255.00 and he said they’ve been here since December. He bypasses that price with me and charges me 267.00 after he gave my slot away in December. Which there really isn’t any class start dates, they just look around and see what the work loads for instructors are and just give them a student.
Now it’s not the money – apparently because I’m going to Flight Safety (but you do want to be thrifty) it’s the principal of the whole thing. A mans word is everything, I definitely didn’t want to work for somebody who acted that way and I finally decided that I was no longer going to attempt to train at someone’s establishment that acted that way.
Guys and gals that have never been in a flight training environment think that the way they operate is the norm but anybody with some background knows that operations not right. That’s why they continue to get students or the occasional person who says, “I’ll just suck it up”. I sucked it up for many years those days are over; my days of tolerating people with questionable character are done.
I guess commpilot is Josh I wouldn't know, but I'm pretty sure he just asked a generic question and got a generic response. I had 30 hours in a single when I should up at Ari. As for ground school, there is no ground school that’s my whole point they don't charge you for it and they don't really provide it and definitely not by part 141 standards, hence my comment "reasonable price for a rental". The ground school that I was getting was from the MEI course that I was sitting in on. They have this fancy book for the program that the instructor barely looks at. The instructors that I had, had never taught a VA guy before (I'm pretty sure that only the VA guys are so called 141), so they had no clue on how to teach 141 they just taught everyone the same.
If you don't fly with your instructor you don't see him at all, and when you do see him it’s to jump in knock out about a 1.2 and then - "oh I'll try to get you on the schedule in a couple of days I have some other students to fly". Other than that if you don't see him you're on your own.
My main man Ian brought up the point of military flight school, yes -structured to the point that they set you up for success and it's up to you to apply yourself. You know from day to day what's going on and what you need to be ready for. I wasn't at the very top of my class but I never busted a check ride or got less than 87%.
The fact is I came to the academy for instruction not advice, if that was the case I would have looked for a place to get my ratings by correspondence or online.
Furthermore, they've been using that lame excuse of, "everything is subject to change" that's what I mean by the ol'bait and switch, they don't tell you its changed until you actually show up and put money on your account. That's how they get guys, they dump their entire loan into the school account or get disbursements to the school and then it's hard for them to back out without their loan going into automatic repayment. People think like I did, oh that’s not a bad price and it's a flight academy, man you can't loose. If it sounds too good to be true it probably is.
Now just to clarify about the price, I visited the school in October of last year and when I did they told me that they had just had another price increase due to fuel from the time that I put my deposit down in August. I asked Mike specifically if he could guarantee this new price for me when I show up in December, he said that he could and wrote it down on a business card. December rolls around and I'm packing to move so I call the school two weeks early to make sure everything is set and I get this response from Angela, "Oh I was meaning to call were short instructors and were not taking anymore students until April. OK, little pissed that they didn’t call me but I’ll get over it. So I show up in April start enrolling put money down on my account and something says – hey ask about the price, so I did. I get the, “oh let me check” statement from Angela. They come back with this price that’s 4 grand higher than what I was quoted. So I asked to see Pierre (good guy) he assures me that they’re going to take care of me and to start training and he will talk to Mike about the price. Three days go by still no word from Mike, so I told Pierre I’m not flying another hour until I can talk to somebody about the price. A week went by before I finally tracked down Mike and got the response I wrote about earlier. What really pissed me off with the whole thing is that Mike was charging everyone there 210.00 and in April the so called price went up again and he started charging everyone 255.00. I asked why they were getting charged 255.00 and he said they’ve been here since December. He bypasses that price with me and charges me 267.00 after he gave my slot away in December. Which there really isn’t any class start dates, they just look around and see what the work loads for instructors are and just give them a student.
Now it’s not the money – apparently because I’m going to Flight Safety (but you do want to be thrifty) it’s the principal of the whole thing. A mans word is everything, I definitely didn’t want to work for somebody who acted that way and I finally decided that I was no longer going to attempt to train at someone’s establishment that acted that way.
Guys and gals that have never been in a flight training environment think that the way they operate is the norm but anybody with some background knows that operations not right. That’s why they continue to get students or the occasional person who says, “I’ll just suck it up”. I sucked it up for many years those days are over; my days of tolerating people with questionable character are done.
Florida_Flyer
Well-Known Member
Good post and nice to see you giving the coming pilots, the chance to benefit from your experience. VA guys are trained 141 as are the regular students. However, as VA, you should get extra checkrides with the Chief Pilot and some solo time in the Duchess. The biggie is that you are REQUIRED BY THE VA to have 1to1 ground training from the instructor. The VA do pay for this ground training (out of your benefits) and the instructors (when I was there) got paid for it. Now it seems a little strange that you were not getting this ground training that even our old buddy Josh (CommPilot76) says you needed. When I was there a VA student left the school and lodged a formal complaint with the VA that he was being charged on his VA benefits for ground school that he did not get. I did see the initial correspondence but don't know the outcome. Perhaps you should make a formal complaint to the VA?
Also, none VA guys remember that if you pay nothing you get nothing. Instead of paying 0 for ground and getting 0 ground you could voluntarily pay the instructor for it and benefit from it. This is what I did and it saved me $00(0?)'s on extra flying hours and bust checkrides. Treat your CFI as you'd like to be treated as a CFI. I know money is tight but don't make false economies.
Well you'd think combat flying would be a greater challenge than civilian training in Florida The reality is that in the civilian world you might not be dodging bullets but there will be a Mike Cohen, underneath every rock trying to screw you over. Ex military guys are sometimes quite slow to work out that the challenge is just "different."
Also, none VA guys remember that if you pay nothing you get nothing. Instead of paying 0 for ground and getting 0 ground you could voluntarily pay the instructor for it and benefit from it. This is what I did and it saved me $00(0?)'s on extra flying hours and bust checkrides. Treat your CFI as you'd like to be treated as a CFI. I know money is tight but don't make false economies.
Well you'd think combat flying would be a greater challenge than civilian training in Florida The reality is that in the civilian world you might not be dodging bullets but there will be a Mike Cohen, underneath every rock trying to screw you over. Ex military guys are sometimes quite slow to work out that the challenge is just "different."
ShoreFly
Well-Known Member
Yes, I have a comment...
I was a VA student (then instructor) at the Aviator in 2004, and reading brentg350 and FloridaFlyer's comments was like stepping back in time. It appears that nothing has changed at the old Aviator, just as awful now as it was then.
I've said it before on this board, quality ground training was non-existent, even though I had to pay for it. This school likes to use the term 'spoon-feeding' to define an instructor-led discussion, and they are doing pilots wrong by not creating a strong foundation before taking to the skies.
SF
I was a VA student (then instructor) at the Aviator in 2004, and reading brentg350 and FloridaFlyer's comments was like stepping back in time. It appears that nothing has changed at the old Aviator, just as awful now as it was then.
I've said it before on this board, quality ground training was non-existent, even though I had to pay for it. This school likes to use the term 'spoon-feeding' to define an instructor-led discussion, and they are doing pilots wrong by not creating a strong foundation before taking to the skies.
SF