The future of pilot jobs

[rnodal]

Hello,

I have no aviation experience so I'm not expert so this is my honest opinion. I don't know if you have a college degree or not but if you do; I recommend getting a job that would allow you to pay for your training without having to get into loans. If you don't have a college degree I recommend getting one . I don't think aviation training is worth loans. You never know what the future may bring you so you have to have a plan B. And like many people have said "DON'T DO IT FOR THE MONEY". I soon would be applying for a job(it would be more of an upgrade since I have been working in the place that I'm applying to for 3 years) that may pay me 47K. I don't have a family to feed so I think that should be enough to pay back my college loan(around 8K, Gov gave me the rest since my family is low income) and pay for my training. I plan on keeping my job and do flight instructing every time I get a change. If something bad happens to me (my hair falls off) and I can't be an airline pilot anymore at least I have something where to fall back. I love flying like crazy and I can't wait to start my training but everything has to be well planned. Doing things out of impulse sometimes don't work. I RATHER REGRET DOING SOMETHING THAT I WANTED TO DO THAN TO REGRET NOT DOING SOMETHING THAT I WANTED TO DO. That's just me. Good luck! I wish you the best.

 

[meyers9163]

Me thinks you would be singing a different tune if you weren't on the bottom of the totem pole in an unstable industry thats currently headed in the wrong direction.

Perhaps.... but he is engaged and about to get married.. I can see why one would have that stance with the uncertain nature that many xjet pilots are in right now, would you not?

 

[gtpilot]

And like many people have said "DON'T DO IT FOR THE MONEY". I soon would be applying for a job(it would be more of an upgrade since I have been working in the place that I'm applying to for 3 years) that may pay me 47K........I RATHER REGRET DOING SOMETHING THAT I WANTED TO DO THAN TO REGRET NOT DOING SOMETHING THAT I WANTED TO DO. That's just me. Good luck! I wish you the best.

Personally, I left a 45K/yr job five years ago and would be making 70k+ now if I had stayed, but was miserable. Financially, it has been tough - I won't make and haven't made more than 25K until next year, assuming I don't get furloughed! However, I have enjoyed all of my flying jobs and wouldn't dream of giving this up for the 70k.

 

[E_Dawg]

The only answer with any truth is that no one really knows what's going to happen in the future. Pilots are sometimes the last to know what's going on with their respective companies, even on a day to day basis. So to make a prediction over the course of a career is a stretch to say the least. I think the most recent industry downturn came pretty suddenly and caught a lot of pilots (and even airlines) by surprise.

Flying itself is fun, but you're looking to make flying into a job. Like any job there are negative aspects which will take some of the fun out of it. You have to ask yourself if you'd be happier doing something else.

Personal opinion only, but I think a lot of the people who do nothing but complain about this job fall into one (or both) of these categories:
-never worked another job and/or had everything handed to them on a plate
-don't have a lot going on outside of work, so their job is on their mind waaay more than it should be

When I go to work, I try not to get too bent out of shape about things beyond my control. Which, as an FO, is pretty much everything

 

[Chris_Ford]

1) I'm not engaged
2) I'd be saying this regardless of what my situation is in the industry.

Look, when you're playing Flight Sim this seems like a really cool job. And it is. Everything you do below 10,000 is reasonably fun. It's the BS outside of the job. The reduced rest overnights, the working on Thanksgiving and Christmas. The fact that my W2 last year was around $20,000, about $7 less than I paid in TAXES the previous year. The fact that you have to take a paycut to go anywhere, and there's no job security anywhere.

Go be an accountant and buy a kickass 310 and fly somewhere on the weekends

 

[rnodal]

Personally, I left a 45K/yr job five years ago and would be making 70k+ now if I had stayed, but was miserable. Financially, it has been tough - I won't make and haven't made more than 25K until next year, assuming I don't get furloughed! However, I have enjoyed all of my flying jobs and wouldn't dream of giving this up for the 70k.

I agree 100% percent with you. Working in a place that you love is the best thing. That job that I'm talking about is not that bad so I don't mind working there while helping pay for my training. Then I would do what you did. Trade land for air:nana2:.

 

[fly4food84]

Seriously, with the cost of flight training sky rocketing, I don't see how many people will be able to afford it. The demand for pilots in the future might be high.

 

[rnodal]

I think there are many ways to pay for training without needing to be in deep debts. I'm not talking about ATP style of training. Maybe I'm just saying this because I have a college degree(95% done) and things may seem easier than they are.

 

[Trip7]

1) I'm not engaged
2) I'd be saying this regardless of what my situation is in the industry.

Look, when you're playing Flight Sim this seems like a really cool job. And it is. Everything you do below 10,000 is reasonably fun. It's the BS outside of the job. The reduced rest overnights, the working on Thanksgiving and Christmas. The fact that my W2 last year was around $20,000, about $7 less than I paid in TAXES the previous year. The fact that you have to take a paycut to go anywhere, and there's no job security anywhere.

Go be an accountant and buy a kickass 310 and fly somewhere on the weekends

But what will your W2 say this year CF? ALOT more than 20k. First year pay does suck, thats why I moved in base so I can get a part time. Oh and first year pay only sucks if you're on reserve not flying. Guys at Eagle and Republic are probably making good money first year. A buddy of mine made 28k first year at SKW a couple years ago. So I figured if I don't fly I'll just bid early morning reserve and work nights.

I've heard from numerous people that being an accountant may be the most boring job in the world. Get in a cube, grab a calculator and punch numbers all day. Wouldn't an accountant take a while to be able to by a 310? Im thinking you need an income way over 100k to be able to own, maintain, and regularly fly a 310. Flight instructors are now being paid as much as accountants these days. Now if you said go be an investment banker now you talking. Now thats MONEY.

 

[Chris_Ford]

But what will your W2 say this year CF? ALOT more than 20k.

Yeah because I'm going to get furloughed and go flight instruct again. Then next year I'll start at year 1 at another regional and it'll be back down to $20k.

Additionally, if I DIDN'T get furloughed, my W-2 would still be in the 27-30k range. I don't know if that's "ALOT" more.

First year pay does suck, thats why I moved in base so I can get a part time. Oh and first year pay only sucks if you're on reserve not flying. Guys at Eagle and Republic are probably making good money first year. A buddy of mine made 28k first year at SKW a couple years ago. So I figured if I don't fly I'll just bid early morning reserve and work nights.

So in a career job, you should need a second job to maintain a fairly nice quality of life? Thinking like yours is a cancer upon our industry. Maybe one day you'll figure out that first year pay rates need to go the way of the dodo. Name one other industry where you change jobs (let alone make an upward move!) and take a DRAMATIC paycut.

I've heard from numerous people that being an accountant may be the most boring job in the world. Get in a cube, grab a calculator and punch numbers all day. Wouldn't an accountant take a while to be able to by a 310? Im thinking you need an income way over 100k to be able to own, maintain, and regularly fly a 310. Flight instructors are now being paid as much as accountants these days. Now if you said go be an investment banker now you talking. Now thats MONEY.

My cousin just graduated from college, she'd been sitting on a job offer for a year for a $100k+ accounting job. So much for that theory.

 

[Trip7]

So in a career job, you should need a second job to maintain a fairly nice quality of life? Thinking like yours is a cancer upon our industry. Maybe one day you'll figure out that first year pay rates need to go the way of the dodo. Name one other industry where you change jobs (let alone make an upward move!) and take a DRAMATIC paycut.

Yeah first year pay needs to go up. Is there anything I can do about it? No. And if I did I would already be on second year pay anyway so me pouting about 1st year pay does absolutely nothing except hurt my head. I made 3000k the first month after IOE after they built me a schedule. If I was flying a full schedule I wouldnt need a 2nd job. But Im not and there's nothing I can do about.

Name other industry where you get a FULL paycheck for doing absolutely nothing! This is a dream. Im on reserve right now getting paid to sit in my pjs on jetcareers, go to the movies with my girlfriend, go clubbing, etc. All I have to do is report to the airport in two hrs at the earliest if they call me (which they almost never do). So its like free money to me. In fact I think I have too much free time, thats why Im getting a 2nd job. Just working weekends alone waiting tables will bring me to 3000k a month if you add the free regional pay im getting.

This career is whatever you make of it. I could have stayed in Dallas, commuted to ATL to sit reserve in a crashpad, cruise the internet all day looking for more aviation info because I worried sick about my job, complain all day on JC and to my crashpad mates about how scheduling sucks, the pay sucks, life sucks, this industry sucks, bad investment etc. But I don't. I take the things I can control and make the best of it. And so far its worked for me. YMMV

My cousin just graduated from college, she'd been sitting on a job offer for a year for a $100k+ accounting job. So much for that theory.

Either she just graduated top of her class from a TOP school, has major connections, or something extraordinary but national average starting salary for an accountant is around 50k. If she's got a master's maybe, but if she just got out of undergrad I say BS. Investment bankers command that type of salary not a accountant. Unless she got a CFO position straight outta undergrad

 

[pipepatrol]

1) I'm not engaged
2) I'd be saying this regardless of what my situation is in the industry.

Look, when you're playing Flight Sim this seems like a really cool job. And it is. Everything you do below 10,000 is reasonably fun. It's the BS outside of the job. The reduced rest overnights, the working on Thanksgiving and Christmas. The fact that my W2 last year was around $20,000, about $7 less than I paid in TAXES the previous year. The fact that you have to take a paycut to go anywhere, and there's no job security anywhere.

Go be an accountant and buy a kickass 310 and fly somewhere on the weekends

THe thing is, most of these things come from being on the bottom of the ladder. Its a known fact that the lower you are on the ladder the harder things will be (which is why you dont see people like Dough complaining much). I think this industry is all about paying your dues and having good fortune. If you dont have good fortune, perserverance has to take over in order to get to the top of the ladder and the dues you have to pay may be more extreme.

Maybe youll luck out and the road will be easy, but maybe not. The odds are, the more you have to endure the better it will be in terms of QOL, job security, pay, etc. Some people may get lucky and slip by though. Its the nature of the beast.

Whenever we got hired on at the regionals it was pretty easy (hence the saying about the only thing you need is a pulse). We havent had to work as hard to get that first regional job as some of the others (Kellwolf, BobDuck) and as a result we're more of a slave, at this stage, to whatever the industry dishes out. But they had to instruct longer and were more of a slave at that stage than we were.

Maybe some of the people who got hired on in this wave will luck out and climb the ladder without as much hardship, maybe not. The only thing we can really do is adjust our approach to give ourselves the best odds based on what the industry is doing.

I guess when luck isnt on your side, its just a test of how bad you want it. Just my .02, take it for whatever its worth.

 

[youngflyer]

There is so much putting down on this industry by people who just a couple of months were thinking that this was the greatest job ever. It seems like once the industry hits some heavy turbulence people think the sky is falling and when it is going very well, everybody loves there jobs and dont think it could end. I love aviation and I could not imagine myself doing anything else but even though I couldnt imagine not pursuing aviation as a career, i will get a backup degree and give myself and out.

 

[Chris_Ford]

Yeah first year pay needs to go up. Is there anything I can do about it? No. And if I did I would already be on second year pay anyway so me pouting about 1st year pay does absolutely nothing except hurt my head. I made 3000k the first month after IOE after they built me a schedule. If I was flying a full schedule I wouldnt need a 2nd job. But Im not and there's nothing I can do about.

YOU YOU YOU YOU YOU, this isn't about YOU, and you're too thick to realize it! "I GOT BY ON FIRST YEAR PAY SO YOU SHOULD TOO!!1"

Quit being selfish. There IS something you can do to fix first year pay, but you're UNWILLING to do it. And sure it was easy for YOU because YOU had no family to pay for, no house to pay for, etc. For a stark majority of pilots out there, first year is essentially an unlivable wage.

Name other industry where you get a FULL paycheck for doing absolutely nothing! This is a dream. Im on reserve right now getting paid to sit in my pjs on jetcareers, go to the movies with my girlfriend, go clubbing, etc. All I have to do is report to the airport in two hrs at the earliest if they call me (which they almost never do). So its like free money to me. In fact I think I have too much free time, thats why Im getting a 2nd job. Just working weekends alone waiting tables will bring me to 3000k a month if you add the free regional pay im getting.

Utility infielders in professional baseball, backup quarterbacks in professional football.

Not to mention that despite what you think, you are actually doing "something." You're married to your phone for the 12-15 hours a day you're on reserve. If you get the call, you basically have to drop what you're doing and go to work. Sure you may not physically be doing anything, but that's because your company is overstaffed, which is their problem, not yours/mine.

This career is whatever you make of it. I could have stayed in Dallas, commuted to ATL to sit reserve in a crashpad, cruise the internet all day looking for more aviation info because I worried sick about my job, complain all day on JC and to my crashpad mates about how scheduling sucks, the pay sucks, life sucks, this industry sucks, bad investment etc. But I don't. I take the things I can control and make the best of it. And so far its worked for me. YMMV

Yeah it's a real easy job as a single male. Wait until you actually have some responsibility in your life and get back to me.

Either she just graduated top of her class from a TOP school, has major connections, or something extraordinary but national average starting salary for an accountant is around 50k. If she's got a master's maybe, but if she just got out of undergrad I say BS. Investment bankers command that type of salary not a accountant. Unless she got a CFO position straight outta undergrad

What, are you taking a page out of the aloft playbook? My cousin, with her degree in accounting, has a $100k+ job that they offered to her a YEAR before she graduated. Yes, it's at an investment firm, but her degree opened up that door, and she's not responsible for a single life! I could very easily be in the same shoes, and in retrospect, I should've done that instead.

 

[Trip7]

YOU YOU YOU YOU YOU, this isn't about YOU, and you're too thick to realize it! "I GOT BY ON FIRST YEAR PAY SO YOU SHOULD TOO!!1"

Quit being selfish. There IS something you can do to fix first year pay, but you're UNWILLING to do it. And sure it was easy for YOU because YOU had no family to pay for, no house to pay for, etc. For a stark majority of pilots out there, first year is essentially an unlivable wage.

Yes, the salvation of regional first year pay is on me. I am the one to change it. I am the Chosen One!

Utility infielders in professional baseball, backup quarterbacks in professional football.

You're kidding right? Please get NFL network and do some research or talk to an NFL backup quarterback and get back to me about that statement. I did more work as a backup receiver in college than I did as a regional FO. Common CF, I used to think you were smart!

Not to mention that despite what you think, you are actually doing "something." You're married to your phone for the 12-15 hours a day you're on reserve. If you get the call, you basically have to drop what you're doing and go to work. Sure you may not physically be doing anything, but that's because your company is overstaffed, which is their problem, not yours/mine.

Oh well Im married to my phone. I'll take the 28 days off a month to be married to my phone.

Yeah it's a real easy job as a single male. Wait until you actually have some responsibility in your life and get back to me.

Yeah I'll get back to you on that one.

What, are you taking a page out of the aloft playbook? My cousin, with her degree in accounting, has a $100k+ job that they offered to her a YEAR before she graduated. Yes, it's at an investment firm, but her degree opened up that door, and she's not responsible for a single life! I could very easily be in the same shoes, and in retrospect, I should've done that instead.

Still don't believe ya.

 

[aerospacepilot]

I'm 29 and have seriousely been considering getting my loan together and head off to flight school.

That right there is enough information for me to give you some good advice.

Don't do it until you have the money to pay for it! The fact is flight training is very expensive. Oil prices are higher than they have ever been and they are only going to go up and up and up. To get your licenses and ratings at a local FBO, you are looking at about $40,000. To get your licenses at a pilot academy, you are looking at $70,000. That is a lot of money, but at the same time, investing in your education is the best investment you can make. If you decide to take out a loan (VERY BAD IDEA!)...
$40,000 at 11% paid off over 10 years = $551/month (or $66,120 total)
$70,000 at 11% paid off over 10 years = $964.25/month or (or $115,710 total)

Remember that in order to do this flight training, it will take 6 months (BARE MINIMUM) to 1 year to get all your licenses and ratings training full time. That is 1 year without any income. Then probably one year as a flight instructor building time (expect about $20k unless you can find one of the good jobs (working 7 days a week, 10-12 hour days), then you can budget more). Then first year as a regional FO is about $20k again. Then probably two more years as a regional FO making about $35k. Can you honestly pay $7,000-$11,600 per year of loan repayments on that kind of salary??

As for the "pilot shortage," there is NO pilot shortage in the United States. In the middle east and Asia, they are short on pilots because there is no general aviation infrastructure to train pilots (like we have in the US), plus air travel in the middle east and Asia is growing rapidly.
In the US, we do not have this problem. Air travel is not really growing at all. $130/barrel oil is the primary culprit. We have the best general aviation system in the world, and we have lots of pilots.

Fewer people are learning to fly for fun, and more people are training to become professional pilots. In 2007, there were 600 more Commercial Pilots Licenses issued than in 2006, and there were 1200 more ATP's (Airline Transport Licenses) issued than in 2006. Yet, the number of private pilots has decreased almost 20%, or by 50,000 in just the last 5 years! Age 65 is letting airline pilots fly for an additional 5 years. And by all indications, ALMOST EVERYONE is staying past 60. Way more than expected. Almost every major airline (major and regional) have been cutting their growth and parking airplanes.

In the past 60 days, several major airlines have shut down.
Aloha, ATA, Skybus, EOS, Big Sky, Air Midwest, Skyway, Champion.
Each of these airlines has had hundreds of qualified airline pilots that are now competing with you for airline jobs.

There are several people who thought there was a real pilot shortage during the last hiring wave (2006-2007) and went out and took out a $65,000 loan to go to some flight academy (costs $100,000++ after interest). Then they took a job at a regional making $20k a year, deferring their payments with the hope that soon they will be making enough money to pay it off. Now unfortunately, several of these people are facing being laid off in the very near future. What are they going to do about their $100,000++ loan and $800+ a month payment, every month for 10 years.



So what do I want you to get out of my post. I don't post on internet forums with the intention of shooting people's dreams down. I post here to give them realistic advice (the kind of advice I would give my family). Here is what you should take from my post.

• There is NO pilot shortage here in the US.
• Aviation is very cyclical. The only constant in this industry is CHANGE.
• Taking out a loan for flight training is a HORRIBLE idea.

If I were you, I would continue working at your current job and save your money for a private pilots license (about $8,000). When you have that money saved up, go out and get your license. You clearly have a passion for aviation and a private license is one of the best things I have done in my life.

After you get this license, decide for yourself. Do you really want to become a career pilot, or do you want to enjoy flying general aviation. If you decide you definately want to fly for a living, then sit back and work hard, save up your $40,000, and then start flight training and do it.

I hope this helps. Let us know what you decide. And feel free to ask for more advice. Just don't go out an drop $40,000 - $70,000 loan (that costs you $66,000 to $116,000 after interest) without doing your research and thinking hard about your decision.

 

[Sprint100]

You're kidding right? Please get NFL network and do some research or talk to an NFL backup quarterback and get back to me about that statement. I did more work as a backup receiver in college than I did as a regional FO. Common CF, I used to think you were smart!

Since I'm in about 90% agreement with CF based on various sources in the career, I'll help punch this point through, backup QB's do not have a heavy load. A backup WR has a heavier load from my perspective, the only positions easier than backup QB would have to be 3rd string QB and kicker, punter.

Back on the aviation tip, I would say definitely go for it. Remember to just enjoy the general aviation side in addition to trying to make that regional, major, cargo carrier. It all goes back to basics and if your foundation is shaky then everything else will be too. In this case GA is the foundation for all other levels. Love of flying is a cure-all for those professional ails.

 

[Chris_Ford]

Yes, the salvation of regional first year pay is on me. I am the one to change it. I am the Chosen One!

I didn't say you were the only one who can change it, but if you actually gave a damn, you could be part of the process to try and fix it. But you're too self-centered to care about anyone else, judging from your posts. You definitely strike me as someone who'd take a paycut to fly a bigger airplane, which is what got us into this mess in the first place.

You're kidding right? Please get NFL network and do some research or talk to an NFL backup quarterback and get back to me about that statement. I did more work as a backup receiver in college than I did as a regional FO. Common CF, I used to think you were smart!

Let's draw comparisons, shall we? The learning of the playbook and the training camps are the same as indoc and systems. Pre-season is the sims. Then you sit on the sidelines while the older guys go at it until next season (recurrent) and by then, maybe you get a few starts. You're not getting paid for what you were hired to do. You're getting paid to sit on the sidelines and maybe take a few snaps in garbage time.

Oh well Im married to my phone. I'll take the 28 days off a month to be married to my phone.

That's fine. What are your times again? Good luck if you get furloughed!

Yeah I'll get back to you on that one.

That is, IF you can get beyond YOURSELF enough to maintain a marriage.

Still don't believe ya.

Wow, you're the new aloft!!!

 

[E_Dawg]

Jeeze, what are you two even arguing about?

 

[derg]

SMS me when you figure it out man, I haven't a clue either.