XJT Rejects SKW's Takeover Bid

zmiller4 said:
And to go a step further, I think a lot of guys at Skywest see a huge amount of hypocrisy in people who criticize them repeatedly for "lowering the bar" who themselves worked at companies with drastically worse pay and work rules.
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You mean airlines like Gulfstream and Pinnacle ? :D


Sorry, haven't read the whole thread, but did read most of this last page. Just wanted to mention that I work at a non-union airline and make significantly more than most union pilots in the USA. I have also enjoyed far better career progression and opportunity when working for non-union carriers than when working for union carriers. While unions certainly have their uses and can be beneficial, they aren't a panacea for the career of the professional pilot. Far from it in fact. They can lead to total career destruction because of their policies and combative attitude towards management.


Typhoonpilot
 
TyphoonPilot...it's really apples and oranges that you're comparing. Sure your company has good benefits, etc but you're operating in a totally different environment.

They can afford to pay competitive salaries to skilled workers for many reasons, among them being huge growth in the local economy.

Also, your company has to attract many ex-pats to fill those skilled worker positions. In order to those people to move to Dubai, they have no choice but to pay competitively. So while you "make significantly more" than many US pilots, many US pilots (including myself) have no interest in moving to the middle east whatever the pay may be. The cost personally far outweighs the slightly higher pay.

And finally, while experiencing huge growth, it's much easier to be satisfied with your situation at a company. You sighted good pay, growth, upgrade. Surely that growth can't all be attributed to being non-union, I would argue it's more due to the economy. Would people be as satisfied if growth stagnated, and the company had to reduce pay, positions etc?? You'd have no recourse.
 
PCL_128 said:
Just to be perfectly clear, I don't "hate" Bumblebee at all. I merely can't respect his opinion on this issue. There is a difference.
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How can you disrespect my opinion on this issue when I have not expressed it. You have merely jumped to conclusions as to how I feel. I have said other things, but I have never stated that I thought SkW employees should not have a union. I have never stated that I thought we had better protections without a union, nor have I ever stated that I would not like to have these kinds of protections. (do a search and check) I have, however, railed at the way you and some of your cohorts have tried to strong arm opinions around here. If you (PCL) would just tone down your pushy attitude, it would go a long way.

Baradium said:
There was a contract at the company I worked for in Alaska too.
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Baradium said:
Of course, if the company didn't like anything in the contract they'd just change the contract to what they wanted to change and announce what it was. With pay cuts they just have to let you know before you do work at the different wage. So a day's notice suffices...

Your pilot group doesn't have a legal bargaining agent. The company can ask opinions, but there's no legal requirement for them to abide by this "SAPA" group that they formed to "represent" you. Otherwise you'd call it "a union."

As I said above... if you had a real "representative group" then you'd have a "company union" and still be unionized...
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This is the part I'm working on researching, if you have some sort of evidence that will make my research easier, I would love to see it. As I said before I have asked some questions on this (the legality of our "contract") previously, and was told that our contract was a legal binding contract. More to come . . .

Baradium said:
I've had a few Skywest guys tell me "if the company will match what the rest of the industry negotiates for pay, why pay union dues?"

I think that's the worst mindset I've heard from any side on these issues. It's also the most selfish. Acknowledgement that the union helps... with an attitude that the rest of the profession can work for it and they'll just ride the coat tails.

I know that not everyone is like that, but those guys were the only ones I talked to who weren't adamently pro ALPA. I was somewhat worried that the majority of the pilots there had that opinion.

I do feel better that Bumblebee isn't using that type of statement in his arguments. I get the feeling he honestly believes it is a good arrangement.
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I do not feel that it's right that people feel this way. Hey I have an idea, why don't you union guys pay dues, maybe even take financial hardships during a job action, and then, once you get the pay and bennies we want we'll just use your hard fought contract as a precedent. That is a selfish, and one way view on the world that will eventually come around on them.

Here is a small view into my history. I was a firefighter for 9 years, AFL/CIO. My father retired after 27 years with the Sacramento Fire Department. In 1970 Sac Fire had a strike. It made nationwide news. Sacramento firefighters began to wear moustaches as a unifying symbol. In solidarity firefighters across the country began to wear moustaches. I marched (at 9) with my dad. He was a goon during the strike and was one of two people arrested for impeding city construction vehicles crossing a picket line. (The other became union president). The point is, I understand the importance of having solidarity as labor, but there is a better way to behave than to use threats and intimidation to get people to come around to your way of thinking.
 
PCL_128 said:
I keep talking with Josh about another M & G, but he's too busy with that training nonsense. You'd think that he would know that drinking takes priority over training. ;)
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I had my first beer at home early this morning when I got in after dicking up the bleeds pretty good for the first time.

But yeah. . .party, M&G, needed.
 
Bumblebee said:
This is the part I'm working on researching, if you have some sort of evidence that will make my research easier, I would love to see it. As I said before I have asked some questions on this (the legality of our "contract") previously, and was told that our contract was a legal binding contract. More to come . . .
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I'm not well enough versed in this to point you at anything other than the previously mentioned CO incident. Really though, if they were considered a bargaining agent they'd call it a "company union."

What this sounds like is the company has a group of pilots they get input from when they're thinking of changes. Not neccessarily a bad thing, but it's non binding.


I do not feel that it's right that people feel this way. Hey I have an idea, why don't you union guys pay dues, maybe even take financial hardships during a job action, and then, once you get the pay and bennies we want we'll just use your hard fought contract as a precedent. That is a selfish, and one way view on the world that will eventually come around on them.
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Did you know there are people being vocal about that? Might give you some insight to why some people act like they do.



PCL_128 said:
If you would just answer a simple question, that would go a long way. At the very least, explain why you won't answer the question.
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If I worked at a non union company that was doing its best to keep a union out I might play my cards close to my chest as well.

Whether you would be shouting how you voted from the rooftops or not, I don't blame him for keeping specifics on the DL when it's a public forum. It's not neccessarily that he is ashamed of anything... he might just not want the entire world to be able to find out with a web search.
 
PCL_128 said:
If you would just answer a simple question, that would go a long way. At the very least, explain why you won't answer the question.
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dense (d
ebreve.gif
ns)
adj. dens·er, dens·est 1. a. Having relatively high density.
b. Crowded closely together; compact: a dense population.

2. Hard to penetrate; thick: a dense jungle.
3. a. Permitting little light to pass through, because of compactness of matter: dense glass; a dense fog.
b. Opaque, with good contrast between light and dark areas. Used of a photographic negative.

4. Difficult to understand because of complexity or obscurity: a dense novel.
5. Slow to apprehend; thickheaded.
 
ExpressJet hasn't exactly been handed roses over the last year, and you've also gotta understand that there are people out there rooting for parts of our business platform to fail. First Chataquatron was handed 25% of our flying that we were doing for CAL, so we started banded. THEN oil went to $120 a barrel, so branded kinda got hosed. Then Colgan started flying huge turboprops at cut throat rates, thus undercutting us (most guys here don't seem TOO pissed about CHQ, but they ARE angry about Colgan undercutting us. At least CHQ has a comparable contract). Now the latest slap in the face is Skywest making an offer, which doesn't boad well because ExpressJet crews are going to look at Skywest in the same way that they have Colgan; flying huge airplanes for less money, and being willing to do our jobs for less money.

Now I know that's not exactly true, but that's what's probably going on if I had to take a bet. Don't let them give you too much crap, a lot of folks are simply stressed out here with the seeming dismantling of the company.
 
XJT guys have had years to make other plans. When was the 69 aircraft cut announced? I feel bad for you guys but you've had awhile to make alternative arrangements. I think the rest of the world could see where XJT was headed. Other carriers will always fly for less, if your management can't make the bottom line figure better for CAL then it's a no-brainer who they will take. AWAC is the most expensive carrier out there right now, and there are better products out there (SkyWest). We used to have a niche, something no one else did. Now that that is gone, we are just like every other regional, albeit more expensive. I am scared for the future.

Losing 25% of your flying, and now CAL saying they will no renew your contract, heck I'd be punching out ASAP. I hear Colgan's hiring street CA's :).
 
ExpressJet made other plans, it just turns out the world oil markets did too. We would be making money on branded with right now with oil at $70 where we got started out, but at $120 a barrel it simply won't happen. All 50 seat operators are about to be jacked, to be honest, and I think that goes for anything smaller than 86 seat jets.
 
wheelsup said:
Losing 25% of your flying, and now CAL saying they will no renew your contract, heck I'd be punching out ASAP. I hear Colgan's hiring street CA's :).
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I agree, wheels. Now, all XJT has to do is announce they're buying Airbus' and the FlyI model will be complete.

Losing this CPA means jets going to the desert for sure.
 
It's not really that simple Velo, there are many more possibilities than that. If you'd like to hear about them, I'm about to start writing...
 
Bumblebee said:
dense (d
ebreve.gif
ns)
adj. dens·er, dens·est 1. a. Having relatively high density.
b. Crowded closely together; compact: a dense population.

2. Hard to penetrate; thick: a dense jungle.
3. a. Permitting little light to pass through, because of compactness of matter: dense glass; a dense fog.
b. Opaque, with good contrast between light and dark areas. Used of a photographic negative.

4. Difficult to understand because of complexity or obscurity: a dense novel.
5. Slow to apprehend; thickheaded.
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[modhat] remember the rules of the website please....that's not really the kind of behavior we want portrayed in the living room. if you have nothing nice to say, sometimes (or most times) it's best to just say nothing. [/modhat]
 
jtrain609 said:
ExpressJet made other plans, it just turns out the world oil markets did too.
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Even if oil was $0/bbl the cost to operate a 50-seat jet is still twice as expensive per seat mile than a larger airframe such as a 737, which holds 3x the people. Personally I think branded was a band-aid until a new contract came along for additional flying. I think XJT has good management but sometimes a regional just needs to know it's place. I fully understand we are at the whim of our major codeshare partner and what drives their decision to hire us to fly for them is price and product. If either are lacking we are SOL.
 
Baradium said:
If I worked at a non union company that was doing its best to keep a union out I might play my cards close to my chest as well.

Whether you would be shouting how you voted from the rooftops or not, I don't blame him for keeping specifics on the DL when it's a public forum. It's not neccessarily that he is ashamed of anything... he might just not want the entire world to be able to find out with a web search.
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This is exactly the attitude that screwed us on the ALPA drive last year. We couldn't even get organizing committee members to go into the crew lounge while wearing an ALPA lanyard to hand out pamphlets. Some people need to grow a pair. Colgan/Pinnacle is far more anti-union than Skywest, but Seggy didn't curl up in the corner and fear for his job during the union drive. He was out in the open with ALPA lanyard on and telling everyone about unions and why they should vote for ALPA. We need more people like Seggy and less people that are scared of their own shadow.
 
Velocipede said:
Sorry, train. But with oil prices, it is that simple. I hate to say it, but you'd better polish up Plan B.
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Polish up? Kid, I've got through plan H ready to rock already. I might be a probie, but Doug has passed along some good advice over the last few years :)
 
PCL_128 said:
This is exactly the attitude that screwed us on the ALPA drive last year.
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No, it's attitudes like yours that "screwed" ALPA. There is a time and place to be militant. Oil at $120/bbl in a recession is not that time.

Colgan needs a union. They get treated like dirt. However SkyWest has always treated their pilots and employees fairly, have above average pay and work rules, and good job stability. If I was there I sure as hell wouldn't want ALPA ####ing it up.
 
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