USAir Pilot To Be Fired For Handgun Going Off

[Champcar]

Lets put this into perspective...... This man was accidentally placing his weapon somehwere else while on final. He is allowed to carry the weapon and therefore help the company out by doing so. If he were a police officer should he be fired for his weapon being fired accidentally? If he were an FBI agent and his weapon went off should they be fired? Lets change this to more typical careers, if he's a doctor and one accident perhaps makes a little too far of a cut on a person that requires more stiches should they be fired? The fact of the matter is you are all hypocrites if you say you have never made a mistake. Thefore calling for this mans head is out of control. If you dare say you are perfect and have never made a mistake I have a man I want you to meet when I pass away pretty far up in the skies..... He who hasnt made a mistake feel free to cast a stone but seriously guys...... You all sound like a bunch of hungry dogs who havent been fed and a piece of meat jsut fell infront of your faces....... This is a mans live, career, etc etc etc and you all have no compassion at all!

His "mistake" was a big one. Intention shouldn't matter, it's the act that counts. It may be his career but he should of been more careful or just left it alone. Guns don't just go off on their own, he should be held accountable for his act, end of story.

 

[meyers9163]

Indeed - let's compare it to the US Military. In the Army there is no such thing as an "accidental discharge." It is a "negligent" discharge because allowing a weapon to to fire implies the operator was negligent in their duties. The reason for the distinction should be obvious; the severity of the consequences can be great if someone allows a firearm to discharge unintentionally. I personally know of a former soldier who has only one leg because his buddy "accidentally" allowed a machine gun to fire. Imagine if the other pilot had been hit in this case. What would the consequences have been then? Then think that the only reason the bullet didn't hurt/kill anyone was because of blind luck.

Through training and very routine discussions on the subject, negligent discharges can nearly be eliminated. One thing the airlines might consider is to emplace a written policy detailing the punishment if a negligent discharge occurs. That would remove ambiguity and would possibly encourage an extra bit of safety from the FFDOs. In the Army a soldier knows exactly what will happen to them if they have a negligent discharge. There is no surprises and no debate.

Not debating! However to call for this mans neck is crazy..... Thus the comparison of dogs and meat..... Seriously have you never made a mistake? I could care less. Lets thank god there was no one injured fine. HOWEVER to take his job is insane..... Period!

ps lets go back to the military.... Pat Tilman? Friendly fire right, did anyone lose their job or get charged for his death!

 

[meyers9163]

His "mistake" was a big one. Intention shouldn't matter, it's the act that counts. It may be his career but he should of been more careful or just left it alone. Guns don't just go off on their own, he should be held accountable for his act, end of story.

Intention indeed matters! Hell just look at the law.... Did I plan it out and murder this person or was it spur of the moment. Hmm yeah in our society intention has EVERYTHING to do with it. Many FDO transfer their weapon. Many do it on the ground at the gate where people are. At least this man was doing it on approach. I dont know I differ with all of you. To take this mans job is just insane. I've heard too many times of accidental discharges. They happen, happen all the time.... If I need i'll go get the stats.....

 

[Ian_J]

I'm not debating either - I'm opining.

It's not about making a mistake - it's about the type of mistake made. If I gear up a plane at my part 135 job, shouldn't I face some consequences? Maybe even be fired? I'm trained to not gear up planes just like FFDOs are trained not to fire their weapons by mistake.

Taking his job? I don't know. In the military no one would be discharged for a first time offense, but they would probably be demoted and have some pay taken away (and some other stuff that wouldn't apply in the civilian world.)

Like I said, it would probably good if there was a written policy in place.

 

[Kristie]

Re: USairways FDO Fired?

Better call his ALPA rep.......oops, nevermind. I would say call uSAPa, but they probably can't afford phones yet.

careful ...let's not go down that road now mmmkay?! we gotta keep working on the civility.

 

[meyers9163]

I'm not debating either - I'm opining.

It's not about making a mistake - it's about the type of mistake made. If I gear up a plane at my part 135 job, shouldn't I face some consequences? Maybe even be fired? I'm trained to not gear up planes just like FFDOs are trained not to fire their weapons by mistake.

Taking his job? I don't know. In the military no one would be discharged for a first time offense, but they would probably be demoted and have some pay taken away (and some other stuff that wouldn't apply in the civilian world.)

Like I said, it would probably good if there was a written policy in place.

I follow your point now.... well said!

 

[Kristie]

But I have heard from a few people he is in some sort of "Flight deck arms program"??

it's called the FSDO program.

 

[Texasspilot]

I think one thing you guys are all thinking is that this guy had his gun out playing with it and pulled the trigger.

From what I've seen the holsters that these guys are required to use require a lock be place THROUGH THE TRIGGER GUARD! which makes for an extremely unsafe situation. If the gun is not seated a 100% before the lock is put it place the gun can discharge.

So you guys that are saying this guy needs to lose his job over this take a step back and realize this guy might have been doing everything right and a faulty equipment design led to him having this accidental discharge.

 

[Ian_J]

it's called the FSDO program.

I thought that was where we went to renew our CFI certificates?

 

[meyers9163]

I think one thing you guys are all thinking is that this guy had his gun out playing with it and pulled the trigger.

From what I've seen the holsters that these guys are required to use require a lock be place THROUGH THE TRIGGER GUARD! which makes for an extremely unsafe situation. If the gun is not seated a 100% before the lock is put it place the gun can discharge.

So you guys that are saying this guy needs to lose his job over this take a step back and realize this guy might have been doing everything right and a faulty equipment design led to him having this accidental discharge.

See this is what I have been told..... I flew with a j4j guy who was close to the pilot in question.... and he told him the same story and that was what he had relayed to me when we were flying. He also pointed out the plane on the hardstand by the airways building in CLT as well..... But yeah this is exactly what I have been told!

 

[Ian_J]

If it is a faulty equipment design that caused the discharge I really hope this guy's attorney is a good one.

(Well, I hope he is a good one regardless - but you know what I mean.)

 

[SlumTodd_Millionaire]

That is really unfortunate. This guy needs real representation to save his job and its gone...

The sad thing is that he probably voted for uSAPa and voted his own representation away just days before the incident that got him fired. He eliminated his own protection. Sad.

It's a really bad idea to be discharging your weapon during a flight. Yeah, yeah, hello, Captain Obvious.

I can see why he got canned. I usually don't come down on the side of the employer but in this case, I can see why they did it.

I won't discuss specifics of the FFDO program, but this pilot was far from negligent. The cause of the gun discharging could have happened to any FFDO. The problem wasn't the pilot, the problem was the procedures and equipment that are used.

If I gear up a plane at my part 135 job, shouldn't I face some consequences? Maybe even be fired?

No, you should not. If I was representing you, I'd argue like hell to keep you from getting disciplined for a simple mistake. Pilots are not perfect, no matter what they may think.

careful ...let's not go down that road now mmmkay?! we gotta keep working on the civility.

Come on, that one was just too easy! No way could I pass up that opportunity.

 

[Minnesota_Flyer]

Two questions:

1. The media have reported that the aircraft was below 10,000 on approach to land when the weapon discharged. If true, isn't monkeying with the weapon during that phase of flight a sterile cockpit violation?

2. Even accepting that the procedure for stowing the weapon is flawed (I tend to agree), isn't it the weapon operator's job to make sure the procedure is done correctly and safely?

 

[Ian_J]

No, you should not. If I was representing you, I'd argue like hell to keep you from getting disciplined for a simple mistake. Pilots are not perfect, no matter what they may think.

Well, thanks. And I'd hate to hear what you consider a serious mistake.

 

[Kristie]

I thought that was where we went to renew our CFI certificates?

DOH! one misspelling of the acronym and people get all up in yo face eh?! :laff:

I think i really meant FFDO (Federal Flight Deck Officer). Thanks for that correction

 

[Kristie]

Two questions:

1. The media have reported that the aircraft was below 10,000 on approach to land when the weapon discharged. If true, isn't monkeying with the weapon during that phase of flight a sterile cockpit violation?

2. Even accepting that the procedure for stowing the weapon is flawed (I tend to agree), is it not nevertheless not the weapon operator's job to make sure the procedure is done correctly and safely?

could it be even possible that he was a little late in stowing the weapon? i could see something like that happening...after all, we are all human.

 

[Cazadores]

Well, thanks. And I'd hate to hear what you consider a serious mistake.

I sort of see it this way, there have been a number of "close calls" in civil and military aviation where pilots have made mistakes. When this happens it seems the first step is to investigate. Seems to me firing this guy, who discharged a firearm in the process of executing a service above his regular duties, is a little precipitous.

I have owned a number of handguns and grew up with them, never have I seen an accidental discharge, however I have seen airplanes crash, and loss of life. I guess in those cases I never thought while watching in horror-boy that guy just really blew it....Perhaps he ought to be taken off FFDO status until an investigation is completed, then we can decide what action to take.

A United Captain many years ago-long retired-ran a 747 SP wing into an adjacent aircraft while pulling into the gate at LAX. There was an investigation of this serious incident after which this Captain was, while clearly responsible, not fired-rather probably just a bit of refresher training instead. Not long after this same Captain was in command of another 747 climbing out of HNL enroute AKL which suffered explosive decompression and significant damage. His crew was able to return the aircraft to HNL, and were hailed as hero pilots.

I guess I see this as an opportunity to look at some of the FFDO issues, like why pilots are not issued weapons to carry to and from the airport, rather than an opportunity to assert management authority. Here ini Nevada anyone with a clean criminal record can take a ridiculously short 8 hour course and carry a firearm concealed. I believe it receives reciprocation rights in 36 other states. It is inconceivable to me Joe Budweiser delivery driver can put his hog leg on in his home, drive down US 395 to work, pack all day, and drive home, yet an Airline Pilot can't be trusted to carry a weapon to and from home in execution of a federally mandated program.

Ridiculous.

Thanks for allowing my rambling thoughts.

 

[SteveC]

...is it not nevertheless not the weapon operator's job...

Fancy lawyerish talk going on there?

 

[MQAAord]

The sad thing is that he probably voted for uSAPa and voted his own representation away just days before the incident that got him fired. He eliminated his own protection. Sad.

Unless you know how this individual voted (as in you either saw his ballot or know him personally and he TOLD you) then DO NOT PUT WORDS IN HIS MOUTH.

You've been warned once in this thread about not going down that road and keeping it civil. We mean it.

 

[Minnesota_Flyer]

Fancy lawyerish talk going on there?

What? Makes perfect sense to me! :crazy: