Logging time
- Thread starter dahhcon
- Start date
Berkut
Well-Known Member
No need to figure it out beforehand. Dahhcon can log whatever time he was sole manipulator of the controls. (assuming he's at least a PP-ASEL, of course)
MidlifeFlyer
Well-Known Member
With multiple opinions being thrown around, you might not recognize the correct answer even though it's been given more than once.
FAR 61.51(e)(1)(i) as interpreted by the FAA for more than 25 years tells us that a private pilot or higher "may log pilot-in-command time ... for that flight time during which the pilot is the sole manipulator of the controls of an aircraft for which the pilot is rated..."
That means the correct answer is that, if your friend allows you to fly the plane and keeps his hands off the controls at the same time, the FAA says you can log that part of the flight as PIC.
MidlifeFlyer
Well-Known Member
In the context of a Part 91 flight in a single-pilot airplane, true enough.
But the OP asked whether he is "able to log that time as PIC for the duration of the time I get to fly" and, assuming "I get to fly" means "as sole manipulator" and he has the proper aircraft rating, the answer is a clear yes.
LoadMasterC141
Well-Known Member
So lets' say I am an MEI with no High Alt or High Performance rating.
I go flying in a Cessna 340, left seat. Can I:
A) Log the time as Dual given?
B) Log the time as PIC if he does not, even though I am not endorsed for that?
And finally, would you do it? I am asking because I it looks like I could get a decent amount of 340 time next month and i'll have my MEI (if all goes according to plan) by then.
CoffeeIcePapers
Well-Hung Member
61.195 says you only need category and class to give instruction, which you have. The only problem with your scenario is that you aren't allowed to ACT as PIC. 61.51, however, specifically says "authorized" instructor. I think that means YOU need to be endorsed to give training in that airplane, but don't take that for gospel.
The most prudent way of doing this is to have someone else ACT as PIC while you log PIC for all of the time you are actually flying the airplane, which is legal under 61.51.
I wouldn't log it as dual given, due to the "authorized instructor" language, but Mark probably has an answer to this as well. This is one thing I am not sure if the FARs define.
flyguy
Well-Known Member
A) Yes
B) You can both log the time as PIC. You can log PIC for any time where you are acting as an authorized instructor.
As for the last question. Sure I'd do it. But when an airline asks me how much PIC time I have I would not count this time because airlines only care about time you were actually acting as PIC which in this case you were not.
Sidious
Well-Known Member
I would say no to giving instruction and logging it unless you have 5 hours in that make and model.
61.195
(f) Training received in a multiengine airplane, a helicopter, or a powered-lift. A flight instructor may not give training required for the issuance of a certificate or rating in a multiengine airplane, a helicopter, or a powered-lift unless that flight instructor has at least 5 flight hours of pilot-in-command time in the specific make and model of multiengine airplane, helicopter, or powered-lift, as appropriate.
flyguy
Well-Known Member
What kind of instruction are you giving? If you are not authrozied to act as PIC, then the studen has to be. If the student already is certified/rated/and properly endorsed, then we can assume you are not giving instruction toward a multi-engine rating, or a high performance endorsement etc. So you might be acting as a CFII giving instrument instruction. You are perfectly authorized to do such, and because you are acting as an authorized instructor you can log the time as PIC. Maybe you are giving a BFR. Same thing. You are not giving instruction toward somehthing you do not have. The student dosn't need that instruction because he already has it, he's just getting a BFR. Therefore whatever instruction you are giving, you must be authorized to give. So, no reason you can't log it as PIC.
The problem arises when you are going to give instrument instruction to a student who does not yet have an instrument rating and you are not endorsed to act as PIC in that aircraft. Can you fly on an IFR flight plan? My interpretation is no, because neither one of you can act as PIC in this case. He cannot act as PIC on an IFR flight plan becasue he is not instrument rated, you cannot becasue you are not properly endorsed. But as long as you remain VFR it all a go.
flyguy
Well-Known Member
Good point, forgot about that. That's multi-engine specific though. If we are talking about a high performance single though and you don't have high performance endo, it would be okay.
A) Yes.
B) Yes.
C) If you're truly providing some type of instruction, why wouldn't you log it as such? Just realize that any time that's in your logbook could come up in interviews/investigations/etc someday, so make sure you have a good legal reason for having that time in your book.
This "training" wouldn't be for the issuance of a certificate or rating in a multiengine airplane, so 5 hours in type isn't needed.
pilatus028
New Member
Another question you might want to ask yourself if you do in fact want to hit the 121 road...am I prepared to answer questions on this aircraft? I have about 50 hours unlogged in aircraft I just didn't feel like writing in for the sole purpose of avoiding questions on them. A good deal of that time is in the right seat of a 135 operation but no thanks. I got paid and had fun keeping the seat warm, but not in my logs.
If you are going to log the hours make sure you know the plane. Of course, you might not get asked anything on the aircraft but it's a gamble.
If you are going to log the hours make sure you know the plane. Of course, you might not get asked anything on the aircraft but it's a gamble.
MidlifeFlyer
Well-Known Member
I understand that the airlines wouldn't count stuff like that as real experience (duh). And I know that some specifically tell applicants to only count Part 1 PIC for application purposes. But aside from that...
For those who really know:
Is there really anything wrong with answering, "I logged the time in my FAA-required record according the the FAA's rules in order to qualify for FAA certificates, ratings and currency requirements. I don't claim to have been the PIC on that flight or to know the airplane in any level of operational detail."
And if not, I know there have been stories in the news about 121 ops who disregard FAA rules, but is "I don't care what the FAA says. You don't have to keep the records it wants" really that rampant in the industry?
I'll admit I'm not one of the guys who really knows, but here is what I did, and plan to do, for all interviews.
- Find out what sort of time they will and will not accept
- Run a filter of my logbook to get the times they count
- Report only those times to them
- If they look through the whole logbook and see something like 0.8 hours PIC in a Schweitzer 300CBI and ask why I logged it as PIC, I'll say:
"While I didn't include those hours as PIC time for the purposes of applying to this airline, I logged the time in my FAA-required record according the the FAA's rules in order to qualify for FAA certificates, ratings and currency requirements. I don't claim to have been the PIC on that flight or to know the airplane in any level of operational detail."
Clocks
Well-Known Member
My opinion is that if you show up to an airline interview with the minimums +.1 hour TT then any airplane you used to hit that time is fair game.
If you show up well over the mins, and some small amount of that "extra" time is broadening your aviation experience in various aerobatic, seaplanes, tailwheels, "seat-warming" in a high altitude turboprops, then there is really no excuse for the interviewer to tear you apart on those airplane's systems.
CoffeeIcePapers
Well-Hung Member
Also, I knew a guy that bought a 340 and the insurance required that he get something like 20+ hours of dual, so there are legitimate cases where you would be giving instruction in bigger chunks.