NW + DL Merger Mania Update... A little birdy tells me

It's going to take upwards of an 70-ish% restoration from current rates to bring the group even close to what was given up/wrestled away to match 2001 rates.

Now a raise that's another beast entirely.

I *think*, I'd have to check my notes, but I think it included a 15% restoration.
 
Airline management comes from a different brand of evil. I think they were all history majors with an emphasis on the Nazi party. The reason you hear of school shootings and not board room shootings is because you can't kill something with out a soul. I think people have tried and failed. A wooden stake to the heart my be the way to go, but you will need an angry mob for that.......wait a minute:sarcasm:

:yeahthat::yeahthat::yeahthat::yeahthat::yeahthat::yeahthat:
 
These ideas are crazy. Management doesn't determine pay based on whether they are good or evil. They make decisions based on money. If they keep the labor happy, they will do their job, not call in sick as much and generally be more productive, but most importantly not organize. We as pilots need union protection because it is extremely hard to recognize pilot productivity. When you give that pilot a raise his productivity does not increase, he still gets airplane from point A to point B for X amount of dollars. You can call management evil if you like because yes their job is to keep labor costs low and increase shareholder value. Effectively their job is to pay you as little as possible. I guarantee they had an analyst run the numbers and determine that by declaring bankruptcy they would be able to reduce labor costs by X amount of dollars. This was the best option to increase value so thats what they did. This was their way to muscle the labor groups.

I want to increase pilot pay and get as much bang for the buck for my flying. Here are my conclusions so far on the only way this is possible.

1. Increase collective bargaining power. (vote, stand united, let your voice be heard)

2. Reduce the quantity of labor
a. this could be done by increasing FAA minimums to enter the industry
b. prove that a low time pilot costs the company more money (ie smoking holes, higher insurance premiums)
c. as flight training becomes more expensive less people will do it
d. educate people on the truths of the industry (get more people to demand more compensation, accepting low pay kills us)

3. Increase demand for labor
a. get more people flying (VLJs and foreign demand will help this)


Way I see it we have the most control over 1 and maybe 2(d), the invisible hand determines the rest.



If you really want someone to call evil then go after the shareholders. They are the ones that will replace management when value is decreased. I agree that Bankruptcy should result in management being fired and left with nothing.
 
No, I'll call management evil. Especially when my management called me a "$30,000 a year Coke machine".

That's not about making a company profitable, that was a vicious attack on an entire workgroup.


(Not to mention that in 7 years with AMR I never came close to $30k!)
 
A PPL license doesn't teach you jack #### about flying for a living and the sacrifices that you make. Let him get 5,000 hours and earn his bread from it then he can talk. Most pilots are more educated than the CEO's the difference as PCL put we have a soul.

Gonna have to pull the 'no sh## sherlock' card ;)

If you really want someone to call evil then go after the shareholders. They are the ones that will replace management when value is decreased. I agree that Bankruptcy should result in management being fired and left with nothing.

Good post, but I really liked this tidbit. Failure should have consequences, not rewards.
 
These ideas are crazy. Management doesn't determine pay based on whether they are good or evil. They make decisions based on money. If they keep the labor happy, they will do their job, not call in sick as much and generally be more productive, but most importantly not organize. We as pilots need union protection because it is extremely hard to recognize pilot productivity. When you give that pilot a raise his productivity does not increase, he still gets airplane from point A to point B for X amount of dollars. You can call management evil if you like because yes their job is to keep labor costs low and increase shareholder value. Effectively their job is to pay you as little as possible.

I want to increase pilot pay and get as much bang for the buck for my flying. Here are my conclusions so far on the only way this is possible.

1. Increase collective bargaining power. (vote, stand united, let your voice be heard)

2. Reduce the quantity of labor
a. this could be done by increasing FAA minimums to enter the industry
b. prove that a low time pilot costs the company more money (ie smoking holes, higher insurance premiums)
c. as flight training becomes more expensive less people will do it
d. educate people on the truths of the industry (get more people to demand more compensation, accepting low pay kills us)

3. Increase demand for labor
a. get more people flying (VLJs and foreign demand will help this)


Way I see it we have the most control over 1 and maybe 2(d), the invisible hand determines the rest.



If you really want someone to call evil then go after the shareholders. They are the ones that will replace management when value is decreased. I agree that Bankruptcy should result in management being fired and left with nothing.

Ahhh, so naive. :) Sadly, you couldn't be more wrong about management's motivations in this business. I suggest three books for you to read that will give you a good knowledge base in these issues: Hard Landing, Flying the Line Vol I, and Flying the Line Vol II. These three books will give you a window into the airline manager's convoluted mind. This is more about ego gratification to them than profitability. If they have to lose $100 million dollars in order to achieve the ego boost of damaging a union, then they consider that a great bargain. Delta Air Lines lost $500 million dollars during the Comair strike, but if management would have given in to every single demand of the CMR pilots, it would have only cost them $50 million. You have to understand the airline management ego before you can understand what you're up against.
 
I don't want to get in a flame war, so we should agree to disagree. They didn't give into the labor union because they fear the unions more than you would ever know. It is naive to think that economics don't apply. I had a professor in college that was an exec for Peoplexpress. He made way too much money before he started teaching.

Managements goal is to decrease collective bargaining power, government regulation etc. This allows them to operate more efficiently. Your damn right they will damage a union any way they can. Unless they fear the backlash :)

-Jason
www.flyboulder.com

BTW, making comment about a member being naive or about a high school level economics course is condescending. If these needed to be added to an argument, it is harder for me to respect what follows.
 
They're the "face" of the airline. Some CEO's have figured that out, others haven't.

You can have all the "Hi! I'm Doug Parker! Welcome aboard!" crap on the safety demo, but if the cabin crew is angry because they got hosed by crew scheduling, well, all bets are off.
 
I don't want to get in a flame war, so we should agree to disagree. They didn't give into the labor union because they fear the unions more than you would ever know. It is naive to think that economics don't apply. I had a professor in college that was an exec for Peoplexpress. He made way too much money before he started teaching.

-Jason
www.flyboulder.com

Jason, I spent years as a union rep during contract negotiations. Trust me, I know these people. Economics apply, but they are secondary to ego for most airline managers. You need to spend some time in this industry, and preferably some time in union work, before you can really understand what's going on.
 
Here's the dirty little secret about upper-level executives in every industry: most do not get their jobs because they are good managers; most get their jobs because they are really good at making a sale. Their most successfully sold product -- themselves.

Something to think about.
 
OK I'll bite on this one....

These ideas are crazy. Management doesn't determine pay based on whether they are good or evil. They make decisions based on money.What goes in their pocket not the share holders. If they keep the labor happy, they will do their job, not call in sick as much and generally be more productive, but most importantly not organize. We as pilots need union protection because it is extremely hard to recognize pilot productivity. When you give that pilot a raise his productivity does not increase, he still gets airplane from point A to point B for X amount of dollars. When he is doing more work for the same money that is a pay cut management wins. When he gets you to do more work for less money he wins and laughs at you.You can call management evil if you like because yes their job is to keep labor costs low and increase shareholder value. If that was the case about shareholder value explain bankruptcy mania? They don't give a damn about the shareholder because they can get filthy rich by running the company into the ground. Just name a Legacy and its been done. Effectively their job is to pay you as little as possible. I guarantee they had an analyst run the numbers and determine that by declaring bankruptcy they would be able to reduce labor costs by X amount of dollars. This was the best option to increase value so thats what they did. Hence RJ's. A 900 CA at my company and the new hire FO make about 113 an hour an thats just a DC-9 CA at NW.This was their way to muscle the labor groups.

I want to increase pilot pay and get as much bang for the buck for my flying. Here are my conclusions so far on the only way this is possible.

1. Increase collective bargaining power. (vote, stand united, let your voice be heard) That starts at the top down. Scope out regional jet flying.

2. Reduce the quantity of labor See above.
a. this could be done by increasing FAA minimums to enter the industry
b. prove that a low time pilot costs the company more money (ie smoking holes, higher insurance premiums)FAA doesn't care about labor costs until some holes get smoked in the ground. When RJ's start dropping about one a month then you might see the FAA step in 5 years later.
c. as flight training becomes more expensive less people will do it Don't know where your getting your bank roll, but If I didn't do it 10 years ago I wouldnt be able to do it today. It's already expensive.
d. educate people on the truths of the industry (get more people to demand more compensation, accepting low pay kills us)Impossible. See GoJet thread.
3. Increase demand for labor
a. get more people flying (VLJs and foreign demand will help this) VLJ are the next cancer. All we need is a bunch of 10,000lb jet cruising in the 30's at .55


Way I see it we have the most control over 1 and maybe 2(d), the invisible hand determines the rest. See PCL's example. Ego plays a big role. Thats why the airline business is like highschool.



If you really want someone to call evil then go after the shareholders. They're getting ###### as bad as any one. They are the ones that will replace management when value is decreased. I agree that Bankruptcy should result in management being fired and left with nothing.Thank God
 
No, I'll call management evil. Especially when my management called me a "$30,000 a year Coke machine".

That's not about making a company profitable, that was a vicious attack on an entire workgroup.

That is evil. Can't argue with that.
 
If management paid attention to economics, PCL and ASA wouldn't have to fight for over 5 years for a contract. I'm not at ASA, so I'll use PCL as an example.

We were/are $X amount of dollars apart over the life of the contract. That means, that if management plopped down $X, then they would be set for about 5 years. Rather than actually do that and move on, they chose to drag things out. What happens? Guys start jumping ship, telling their friends not to come here and FOs start applying elsewhere. I can give you a list a mile long of FOs that went from here laterally to another regional. That's wasted money in training costs right there. They spend upwards of $30K per FO only to see them leave in about 6 months to a year. Then they have to spend ANOTHER $30K+ on another new hire that MAY make it through training. Even put that aside, PCL paid more in penalities to NWA due to cancelled flights due to lack of staffing last year than we were apart on the contract. So, if they had signed the deal, WORST case scenario is they would have broken even since they wouldn't have had to pay the penalities since most guys would have stuck around, alleviating the staffing issue. Instead, they chose to dig in their heels so they wouldn't look like sell-outs to the rest of the airline management teams. It took Delta stepping in and saying "Look, this labor unrest is costing us $$$. Settle it." for ASA to get a contract.

I'll agree that management's job is to make $$$ for shareholders. But management will also bring in analysts to formulate reports showing productivity for themselves in order to justify raises for themselves. At the same time, they'll tell the labor groups in negotiations "There's not enough money to go around." Then they go out and buy another airline (which actually LOSES money over the year and is still bleeding cash) and more airplanes.
 
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