Tram
Well-Known Member
Huh?*
NW + DL Merger Mania Update... A little birdy tells me
- Thread starter derg
- Start date
Huh?*
Velocipede
New Member
Well said.
kellwolf
Piece of Trash
The problem lies with the legislation the airlines operate under. If operated under some of the similar rules as, say, UAW, we actually COULD bring management to their knees....or strike an airline out of existence. The way the law is written and applied under the current government gives ALL the power to management. This effectively hampers the unions. In the last 7 years, unions have had next to NO power thanks to an administration that isn't very friendly when it comes to work stopages and bankruptcy judges giving management everything they want thanks to a catchy, if flawed, flow chart presented in court.
As for seniority, you can't really expect someone that's been flying for 10-20 years to suddenly say "Well, sure. I'll go back to flying narrowbody domestic for the good of the industry." There comes a time when you have to say "What's in it for me?" Is it better for the industry that Pinnacle and Colgan merge to avoid a whipsaw? Definately. Am I gonna give up my upgrade coming in a few months? Hell no. That's why worrying about your seniority number is important. It dictates what your schedule is, how many days off you get, if you can hold your base and when/if you become a CA. In a merger situation, it's quite probable that a few newly upgraded CAs might be sent back to the right seat. Not so good if you just bought a new house based on what you would have been making pre-merger.
Most of the time, if your knowledge of the airline industry comes from the news, it's probably flawed knowledge. A few of the guys on TV know what they're talking about, but a majority seem to be someone on staff with a PPL that was tagged with an "aviation analyst" tag.
Translation: We've got a lot of guys in MEM that just like to b*tch to hear themselves. They'll rant and rave about MEM closing, but in the grand scheme of things there's nothing any of us can do about it. So, there's no reason to have a stroke over it. It's either gonna happen or it's not.
Tram
Well-Known Member
Thanks for the replies...I am interested in learning more about the unions and how legislature effects their bargaining power. Does anyone have any links to any primary sources?
Collective bargaining and unions really depend upon the group thinking as a whole. To be effective unions need to look at things with a more socialist point of view. We as Americans, myself included think about ourselves first. This is the way we were raised. Our democratic country was founded on individualism and democracy.
Thank god for unions otherwise the airlines would pay the pilots the minimum amount that would attract just enough pilots to fly the exact number of airplanes they fly. I really need to pull up a few of the graphs to help explain this visually to the people who fly a 90+ passenger airplanes for pennies. They of course are going to pay just enough to get warm bodies in the seats. This is what the economic model tells them to do. Of course with a few adjustments thrown in factoring how many planes would crash because of incompetence. People can bitch and moan all they want but a for-profit company is not going to operate any other way. It would be inefficient.
I see your point of size and bargaining power being a moot point if legislature give management all of the power. I just think it would be cynical to think that there is nothing we can do as pilots to change they way things work. Without at least a few people that feel they can make a difference then the above scenario will come true and international captains will be making 50 large a year. I don't want to enter an industry where everyone is hopeless.
I am learning quickly and again I appreciate all the replies, I am a CFI that has not yet entered the 121 world, but it will be soon I hope.
From a few other industries we studied in school (cruise ships for example), do you think that if there were ever enough foreign pilots qualified that our jobs would be completely outsourced? I mean if there were legions of trained foreigners willing to work for half the pay are we all out of jobs? Obviously right now training in the US is the cheapest, but in 15-20 years that could change. Maybe a little far fetched, because the airline industry is special and unique in a lot of ways but if you looked at straight spreadsheets this is probably what would happen. Unfortunately management makes decisions using spreadsheets almost exclusively.
Collective bargaining and unions really depend upon the group thinking as a whole. To be effective unions need to look at things with a more socialist point of view. We as Americans, myself included think about ourselves first. This is the way we were raised. Our democratic country was founded on individualism and democracy.
Thank god for unions otherwise the airlines would pay the pilots the minimum amount that would attract just enough pilots to fly the exact number of airplanes they fly. I really need to pull up a few of the graphs to help explain this visually to the people who fly a 90+ passenger airplanes for pennies. They of course are going to pay just enough to get warm bodies in the seats. This is what the economic model tells them to do. Of course with a few adjustments thrown in factoring how many planes would crash because of incompetence. People can bitch and moan all they want but a for-profit company is not going to operate any other way. It would be inefficient.
I see your point of size and bargaining power being a moot point if legislature give management all of the power. I just think it would be cynical to think that there is nothing we can do as pilots to change they way things work. Without at least a few people that feel they can make a difference then the above scenario will come true and international captains will be making 50 large a year. I don't want to enter an industry where everyone is hopeless.
I am learning quickly and again I appreciate all the replies, I am a CFI that has not yet entered the 121 world, but it will be soon I hope.
From a few other industries we studied in school (cruise ships for example), do you think that if there were ever enough foreign pilots qualified that our jobs would be completely outsourced? I mean if there were legions of trained foreigners willing to work for half the pay are we all out of jobs? Obviously right now training in the US is the cheapest, but in 15-20 years that could change. Maybe a little far fetched, because the airline industry is special and unique in a lot of ways but if you looked at straight spreadsheets this is probably what would happen. Unfortunately management makes decisions using spreadsheets almost exclusively.
JoelT
Well-Known Member
ElyJs,
Good for you trying to educate yourself about the industry that you are entering. You will quickly learn that although you have an economics degree not much about labor relations follows the traditional model. For example: supply and demand. There is a shortage of pilots but, wages have been going down (both actual wages and those adjusted for inflation). Figure that one out.
These forums in general are mostly good places to learn but with one huge caveat: people's personalities get in the way
. Unfortunately, there are no unbiased histories of airlines and labor. But, ALPA's 'Flying the Line Vol I and Vol II' are good places to start. You will get these books if you get hired by an ALPA carrier. If you want them sooner, contact ALPA. In fact, there is a new website made specifically for folks wanting to know more about a pilot's life. It is www.clearedtodream.org
The website probably doesn't go in to the detail you would like but, give ALPA a call and see if they would send you stuff on the RLA (railway labor act), Section 6 negotiations, ALPA PAC, ALPA merger policy, and anything else they care to part with.
Good for you trying to educate yourself about the industry that you are entering. You will quickly learn that although you have an economics degree not much about labor relations follows the traditional model. For example: supply and demand. There is a shortage of pilots but, wages have been going down (both actual wages and those adjusted for inflation). Figure that one out.
These forums in general are mostly good places to learn but with one huge caveat: people's personalities get in the way
. Unfortunately, there are no unbiased histories of airlines and labor. But, ALPA's 'Flying the Line Vol I and Vol II' are good places to start. You will get these books if you get hired by an ALPA carrier. If you want them sooner, contact ALPA. In fact, there is a new website made specifically for folks wanting to know more about a pilot's life. It is www.clearedtodream.orgThe website probably doesn't go in to the detail you would like but, give ALPA a call and see if they would send you stuff on the RLA (railway labor act), Section 6 negotiations, ALPA PAC, ALPA merger policy, and anything else they care to part with.
I do not believe that the airline industry deviates from the economic model at all. There is no shortage of pilots. How many people on this board with 400 hours are just trying to figure out which airline will higher them with the low time. First question you always see when somebody posts hired in the announcement section is "What were you times?" Also from what I hear every major has way more applications then position available.
HAHAHA Pilot Shortage! Only when every airline has a 250 hour fo and a 1500 hour captain will there be a shortage and only then because of government regulation (FAA). Granted a few adjustments need to be made for smoking holes, but there haven't been too many. Last pilot shortage I heard of was when the majors were hiring college graduates with 0 time and training them up. My DE for my PPL went from 0 time to commercial pilot in about a month, then moved into his airline job.
Believe me we are working down to W(1) until every commercial pilot seeking employment with an airline is hired or a union artificially increases the wage.
But I am def here to listen. I am trying to learn as much as I can. I do need to read Flying the Line books soon.
-Jason
www.flyboulder.com
HAHAHA Pilot Shortage! Only when every airline has a 250 hour fo and a 1500 hour captain will there be a shortage and only then because of government regulation (FAA). Granted a few adjustments need to be made for smoking holes, but there haven't been too many. Last pilot shortage I heard of was when the majors were hiring college graduates with 0 time and training them up. My DE for my PPL went from 0 time to commercial pilot in about a month, then moved into his airline job.
Believe me we are working down to W(1) until every commercial pilot seeking employment with an airline is hired or a union artificially increases the wage.
But I am def here to listen. I am trying to learn as much as I can. I do need to read Flying the Line books soon.
-Jason
www.flyboulder.com
JoelT
Well-Known Member
Actually, I would argue that wages are artificially low. In the mid '80s a narrow body captain made about 150k. That wage adjusted for COLA would be around 250k today.
Airlines will always pay the absolute lowest they possibly can. Even if it means crying poor even though the managers give themselves bonuses.
Too many external forces (management tactics, RLA, NMB, DOJ, DOL, Congress, White House, ATA, ALPA, APA, SWAPA, NPA, IPA, FAA, NTSB, JAA, IFALPA, RAA and so on and so on...) control our fates. The theories of classic economics just don't work here. BTW, I have a degree in finance with a minor in accounting. Nothing that I learned in school seems to apply either.
Airlines will always pay the absolute lowest they possibly can. Even if it means crying poor even though the managers give themselves bonuses.
Too many external forces (management tactics, RLA, NMB, DOJ, DOL, Congress, White House, ATA, ALPA, APA, SWAPA, NPA, IPA, FAA, NTSB, JAA, IFALPA, RAA and so on and so on...) control our fates. The theories of classic economics just don't work here. BTW, I have a degree in finance with a minor in accounting. Nothing that I learned in school seems to apply either.
Does a domestic narrowbody take any more skill to fly than a RJ? The only reason that 737 pilot makes more is because of scope clauses negotiated by unions, at least the way I see it. This I will debate with you. Why does that 737 pilot make more? These are the answers I am searching for.
The laws of economics do apply. You cannot escape them. They are fact. I will debate many things and am here to see and hear other viewpoints. I will not debate whether or not the laws of economics apply.
-Jason
The laws of economics do apply. You cannot escape them. They are fact. I will debate many things and am here to see and hear other viewpoints. I will not debate whether or not the laws of economics apply.
-Jason
SlumTodd_Millionaire
Most Hated Member
SlumTodd_Millionaire
Most Hated Member
The domestic 737 pilot makes more than the domestic RJ pilot because he produces more revenue. A small 737 has anywhere from 100-140 seats, while a large RJ has anywhere from 70-86 seats. That's a big difference in revenue producing capability. It isn't about skill required, it's about revenue produced.
kellwolf
Piece of Trash
How about a shortage of QUALIFIED pilots. The 250 hour guys should make less than the 1000 hour guy. He's got 750 hours less experience. But the CAs that fly with the 250 hour guys should make MORE in a lot of cases since they're the ones that are having to cover the difference in the experience gap. That doesn't happen, though.
If airlines followed the traditional model of economics, they would raise pay when the qualified applicants dried up. Instead, they lower the minimums. What happens when businesses are running low on talent? They offer more in compensation. They don't go out and say "Well, you only need a HS diploma to act as an exec in my company." Those that do get those jobs without advanced degrees often have experience to back it up. Getting hired at a regional as an FO now is the equivalent of taking a HS grad and putting him directly in as exec VP of a small branch of a large business. He might know a bit from the econ class he took in HS, but odds are he doesn't know a whole lot about managerial techniques and how to run a staff. A 250 hour FO might have some book knowledge from stuff he studied for FAA writtens (and he MIGHT have actually taken the ATP written), but odds are he's weak in CRM skills and the experience in making decisions on his own.
If airlines followed the traditional model of economics, they would raise pay when the qualified applicants dried up. Instead, they lower the minimums. What happens when businesses are running low on talent? They offer more in compensation. They don't go out and say "Well, you only need a HS diploma to act as an exec in my company." Those that do get those jobs without advanced degrees often have experience to back it up. Getting hired at a regional as an FO now is the equivalent of taking a HS grad and putting him directly in as exec VP of a small branch of a large business. He might know a bit from the econ class he took in HS, but odds are he doesn't know a whole lot about managerial techniques and how to run a staff. A 250 hour FO might have some book knowledge from stuff he studied for FAA writtens (and he MIGHT have actually taken the ATP written), but odds are he's weak in CRM skills and the experience in making decisions on his own.
I see the revenue point of view, but it makes me a little nervous to depend on the goodwill of management to share revenue with the pilots. It seems like the union negotiations have more ground to stand on.
In the end managements goal is to get customer from point A to point B for the lowest cost and highest price possible. What is stopping Virgin America from operating A320's and paying RJ wages? The only thing I can think of is fear of the pilots organizing. How many embry-riddle or ATP grads wouldn't go fly that A320 for RJ wages?
In a business that exec is paid more because the experience he/she brings allows him to make more for the company. In the airline industry the 250 hour pilot flying the 737 produces the same amount of revenue as the 5,000 FO flying the 737. This is until he makes a smoking hole in the ground, then he costs a lot.
-Jason
www.flyboulder.com
In the end managements goal is to get customer from point A to point B for the lowest cost and highest price possible. What is stopping Virgin America from operating A320's and paying RJ wages? The only thing I can think of is fear of the pilots organizing. How many embry-riddle or ATP grads wouldn't go fly that A320 for RJ wages?
In a business that exec is paid more because the experience he/she brings allows him to make more for the company. In the airline industry the 250 hour pilot flying the 737 produces the same amount of revenue as the 5,000 FO flying the 737. This is until he makes a smoking hole in the ground, then he costs a lot.
-Jason
www.flyboulder.com
kellwolf
Piece of Trash
That's true. At least with a union negotiated CBA, you know what you're getting. Anything else is left to the whim and mercy of management. If you hit lean times, there's nothing preventing management from altering a profit sharing deal in order to "re-invest" that money in the airline (or management's pockets).
That and no insurance company in their right minds would cover them with that lack of experience. What they might save in labor costs they'd lose several times over in insurance premiums assuming they could find a company that would give them hull coverage and liability insurance.
Like I said. Lack of QUALIFIED pilots.....
I just finished up a trip with one of the CAs that does checkrides in the sim for both CAs and new hire FOs. He was telling me some of the stuff people bust their checkrides on and.....well, damn. Some of those guys I wonder how they got this far.
This makes sense to me, but again, how much harder is an A320 to fly than an RJ? How long before the insurance companies figure this out and either charge more for the RJ or less for the Boeing or Airbus? Don't you think there is a management position lobbying for this change right now? I guess the insurance to cover losing 150 people is a lot more than losing 50 people. This is what is true at the GA level. That 6 seat twin comanche costs more than the 4 seat version.
I could also see the theory that they wash out less pilots, leading to lower training costs.
I hate to play devils advocate, I really appreciate the constructive answers you have given me. I just want a better understanding.
-Jason
SlumTodd_Millionaire
Most Hated Member
I'm not talking about "good will." No such thing exists with management. I'm just talking about the reasoning that unions use when determining payscales. ALPA, and most other pilot unions, use revenue generation potential as the justification for demanding higher pay for larger equipment. In the early days, ALPA used aircraft speed as a metric for determining payscales, but that quickly changed to aircraft size. The union for the UPS pilots prefers to use a blended scale that has a single payrate for all aircraft types. I actually prefer this method, but the IPA is the only union that I'm aware of that uses it.
bike21
9-5 Ruins Lives
Not true. I have a lot of respect of your viewpoints, but you seem to be quite jaded against management in general. Have you ever been management or had good friends/family in management? They are not all evil ya know
Nope, I am bright-eyed bushy tailed CFI right out of college doing my best to learn more about the real world. I do not have any friends or family in the airline industry besides the people I have met at the airport or since I started flying. All of my family are business execsNot true. I have a lot of respect of your viewpoints, but you seem to be quite jaded against management in general. Have you ever been management or had good friends/family in management? They are not all evil ya know
. I do not think management is evil at all, actually just he opposite. They operate in a very logical way to maximize profits by all possible means. JC so far has been a great place to start my real world education. I am here to learn...and question.
-Jason