NW + DL Merger Mania Update... A little birdy tells me

bike21 said:
Not true. I have a lot of respect of your viewpoints, but you seem to be quite jaded against management in general. Have you ever been management or had good friends/family in management? They are not all evil ya know :)
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No, I've never been management. I actually have a soul, so I'm disqualified. ;)

Seriously, though, you're right that they aren't all evil, but 90% of them are. SWA management seems to "get it," but that's the exception rather than the rule. Most of them are so blinded by ego and greed that they aren't even aware of the difference between right and wrong. My father was in management at Detroit Diesel for many, many years. He sat in on meetings where senior management plotted some anti-union activities that most people wouldn't even believe. He eventually had to leave management altogether because he simply couldn't stand being around it anymore.

P.S. If you think your management at Skywest has any good will, then you're dreaming. They've given you nothing that wasn't based on the ulterior motive of keeping a union off the property. Truly benevolent management doesn't hire union-busting lawfirms like Ford & Harrison. Truly benevolent management like SWA actually welcomes unions and strives to work with them.
 
I know SWA pretty much has the business model pegged that allows it to make $$$ even in todays industry. Their relationship with labor is great too. I wonder though if their attitude would change if they started hemoraging cash like the legacies were. Relations always seem great when times are fat, but when the times get lean everything seems to go to crap between labor and mgmt.
 
ElyJs said:
This makes sense to me, but again, how much harder is an A320 to fly than an RJ? How long before the insurance companies figure this out and either charge more for the RJ or less for the Boeing or Airbus?
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Again, its not a question of diffculty. You can make the same comparison with a Cessna. Its invalid.

What the insurance company looks at is the number of individuals who certainly would file lawsuits in the event of an accident/incident. That's what they base their rates on. And if you start putting low time pilots in 747s, the insurance premiums would be prohibitive.

Don't you think there is a management position lobbying for this change right now?
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You might be surprised to learn exactly how shortsighted management is. For instance, when fuel prices started going up, our pilot group told our managers that they needed to install winglets on the 737s to reduce fuel burn. Their answer? "Not economically valid." Well, along come the fuel spike and one of them thinks, "Hey, what about winglets?" Now, its the greatest idea since sliced bread. Unfortunately, several of the jets THEY ordered are not configured to accept winglets.

Not a lot of long term thinking in headquarters. They're too busy protecting their fiefdoms, counting their stock options and conspiring to reduce labor costs.

I could also see the theory that they wash out less pilots, leading to lower training costs.
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Training failures are a cost of doing business. When there are a lot of experienced pilots available, they have hoops like pre-hire sim checks. And Regional Airlines don't put 250 hour F/Os in airplanes.

However, that's where we are today. Some major airlines are even hiring F/Os with ZERO PIC time. Can't wait until some of those guys try to check out.
 
Read in the USA today yesterday that management and ALPA came to a new contract agreement that will help pilots regain their Pre-9/11 pay! I would think thats a lot of money the pilots are giving up by fighting over seniority.
 
It's not pre-9/11 pay, but it's a big improvement. But pay doesn't mean much if you lose your seniority. Seniority is everything. I can understand the parties holding off until things are completely worked out. Nobody wants another AAA/AWA situation.
 
USAToday was incorrect.

Which occurs often. Who was that Flight Simmer named Eric (something) that was an airline analyst for a few years? :)

But they have some awesome colorful factoids about minutia! :sarcasm:
 
ElyJs said:
Does a domestic narrowbody take any more skill to fly than a RJ? The only reason that 737 pilot makes more is because of scope clauses negotiated by unions, at least the way I see it. This I will debate with you. Why does that 737 pilot make more? These are the answers I am searching for.

The laws of economics do apply. You cannot escape them. They are fact. I will debate many things and am here to see and hear other viewpoints. I will not debate whether or not the laws of economics apply.

-Jason
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Because the RJ shouldn't exist? Not at the regional level. We are farmed out labor with the motherships logo on the side. If those at the mothership would scope out jet flying all together then there would be an adjusted payscale and bye bye to the majority of RJ's at the regional level.

Why does a 747 400 CA make more than a DC-9? Was does and RJ CA make more than a Saab CA? The amount of responsibility in back with the amount of cargo(pax) you carry. The insurance, I think some one was getting to the same point as me. My cousin is a bus CA at NWA he has been there for 25 years(and hes 48) he laughs about how the more money you make the easir the flying is. For example a A320 vs a PA 31 with no AP.
 
PCL_128 said:
No, I've never been management. I actually have a soul, so I'm disqualified. ;)

Seriously, though, you're right that they aren't all evil, but 90% of them are. SWA management seems to "get it," but that's the exception rather than the rule. Most of them are so blinded by ego and greed that they aren't even aware of the difference between right and wrong. My father was in management at Detroit Diesel for many, many years. He sat in on meetings where senior management plotted some anti-union activities that most people wouldn't even believe. He eventually had to leave management altogether because he simply couldn't stand being around it anymore.
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Good to hear that, my parents run a construction company and certainly aren't evil :) And get this...they actually WANT to be unionized. SWA does certainly seem to 'get it', but as DZERO said I wonder how things will be in lean times. I would put the 'evil' rating much lower to about 10%, misguided/power/money hungry 70%, clueless 10%, benevolent 10% :)

P.S. If you think your management at Skywest has any good will, then you're dreaming. They've given you nothing that wasn't based on the ulterior motive of keeping a union off the property. Truly benevolent management doesn't hire union-busting lawfirms like Ford & Harrison. Truly benevolent management like SWA actually welcomes unions and strives to work with them.
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Truly benevolent? Nope. Decent guys trying to run a solid business? Yep. While I certainly disagree with the company's non-union stance and some other issues, we do have some solid folks running this show. Heck, our new president is even getting his PPL in an effort to understand pilot needs more. Now there is something you don't see everyday.
 
bike21 said:
I would put the 'evil' rating much lower to about 10%, misguided/power/money hungry 70%, clueless 10%, benevolent 10% :)
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Eh, I consider power/money hungry to be the same as "evil." So I'll compromise and say 80% evil. :)

Heck, our new president is even getting his PPL in an effort to understand pilot needs more. Now there is something you don't see everyday.
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Careful with that. Phil Trenary (aka, Phildo), CEO at Pinnacle got his Private also. He used it to claim that being a pilot "really isn't that hard." :rolleyes:
 
Yeah, AMR's "boss" is a pilot. And I've no respect for him at all. A pilot's license doesn't make an airline pilot.
 
Airline management comes from a different brand of evil. I think they were all history majors with an emphasis on the Nazi party. The reason you hear of school shootings and not board room shootings is because you can't kill something with out a soul. I think people have tried and failed. A wooden stake to the heart my be the way to go, but you will need an angry mob for that.......wait a minute:sarcasm: Outside of a few small examples I think 98% of airline execs are pure evil. Poorly managed company goes into bankruptcy, buys new planes sheds, leases, slashes salaries and pensions, then the CEO gets a fat bonus. If any one of us filed for bankruptcy I don't think we could get rid of our credit cards, mortgage, etc. and buy a new car. Not to mention get a raise and stay in control of our finances.
Yes they are evil. Management files bankruptcy they should all loose their jobs not get bonuses. Then there might be an incentive to run a company right. Hang'em and Hang'em High!
 
PCL_128 said:
Eh, I consider power/money hungry to be the same as "evil." So I'll compromise and say 80% evil. :)
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Fair enough :)

Careful with that. Phil Trenary (aka, Phildo), CEO at Pinnacle got his Private also. He used it to claim that being a pilot "really isn't that hard." :rolleyes:
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MQAAord said:
Yeah, AMR's "boss" is a pilot. And I've no respect for him at all. A pilot's license doesn't make an airline pilot.
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Duly noted folks. Not saying our boss is suddenly our whitish-blue collar brethren, but at least he is getting educated. I will let him make up his own mind on how wants to treat his workers.
 
bike21 said:
Fair enough :)





Duly noted folks. Not saying our boss is suddenly our whitish-blue collar brethren, but at least he is getting educated. I will let him make up his own mind on how wants to treat his workers.
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A PPL license doesn't teach you jack #### about flying for a living and the sacrifices that you make. Let him get 5,000 hours and earn his bread from it then he can talk. Most pilots are more educated than the CEO's the difference as PCL put we have a soul.
 
I appreciate your candor, but I'm certainly of the school of thought that the next incarnation of Lorenzo is going to be an airline pilot with an MBA.
 
Doug Taylor said:
USAToday was incorrect.

Which occurs often. Who was that Flight Simmer named Eric (something) that was an airline analyst for a few years? :)

But they have some awesome colorful factoids about minutia! :sarcasm:
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Do you know what the proposed pay is like somewhat?
 
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